Every profession has its own mountain to climb. Whether you’re a trauma nurse, teacher, coach, business professional, stay-at-home parent, student, or serving in another role, you know what it feels like to carry responsibility that matters.

That’s where our inspiring series, Performing Under Pressure, comes in. Listen in as we interview people of different professions about the pressures they face and how to handle them. We talk honestly about the pressures that come with high-stress careers, navigating job stress in healthy ways, and how faith in Jesus influences leadership and service.

These conversations aren’t just for people in those professions. They’re an invitation to better understand the burdens others carry, and to live out Galatians 6:2 by “bearing one another’s burdens”.

The climb won’t always be easy, but you don’t have to do it alone.

Performing Under Pressure: Inside the Trauma Bay

What does it take to stay calm when someone else’s life is in on the line? That’s something our first guest, ER nurse Caroline Vandervoort, has to deal with on a daily basis. In this enlightening conversation with Austin Conner, PLPC, Caroline shares what it’s like to work in the trauma bay, care for patients on the hardest day of their lives, receive criticism without becoming cynical, and battle compassion fatigue by relying on God’s strength.

Whether you work in healthcare or not, we think you’ll see yourself in Caroline’s story. Because ultimately, this episode isn’t just about emergency medicine. It’s about remaining compassionate under pressure, pursuing excellence without losing your soul, and discovering that Jesus is present even in trauma and chaos.

Listen: Inside the Trauma Bay

Read: Inside the Trauma Bay

Performing Under Pressure: In a War Zone

What keeps someone steady when every decision could mean the difference between life and death? In this gripping episode, Shay Roush, M.Div., sits down with Vince Bentinganan, a retired Army lieutenant colonel and former Commander of Bravo Company, 110th Engineer Battalion, to hear about the realities of searching for improvised explosive devices (IEDs) in a hostile environment with brutal physical, mental, and spiritual conditions.

As they reflect on their 20-year friendship, Vince shares openly about the stress of combat, the weight of leadership, and the spiritual disciplines that kept him grounded during deployment. It turns out that prayer, godly friendships, connection, and encouragement are helpful even in one of the most dangerous environments imaginable.

Listen: In a War Zone

Read: In a War Zone

Performing Under Pressure: Pushing the Limits of Medicine

Listen in as Austin sits down with Dr. Brandon Huffman, a gastrointestinal oncologist and clinical researcher, to explore the intersection of extraordinary scientific progress and profound human suffering. Brandon shares how his Christian faith enables him to face suffering honestly without losing hope, even when healing doesn’t come in the way he or his patients desperately want.

Whether you work in medicine, care for people in another high-pressure profession, or simply wonder how to remain faithful when you’re confronted with problems you can’t fix, this conversation offers a thoughtful and deeply human perspective on calling, compassion, and the hope that endures even in the face of death.

Listen: Pushing the Limits

Read: Pushing the Limits

Performing Under Pressure: Teaching with a Purpose

In this eye-opening episode, Austin sits down with elementary school teacher Lexie Darrough to talk about what it’s really like to stand at the front of a classroom. Their conversation explores teacher burnout, the challenge of caring for both the hearts and minds of the students, the partnership between parents and educators, and the freedom of knowing that God loves every child even more than we do.

Whether you’re a teacher, a parent, or simply someone who wants to better understand the people shaping the next generation, Lexie’s wisdom offers encouragement for anyone trying to faithfully serve others under pressure.

Listen: Teaching with a Purpose

Read: Teaching with a Purpose

Performing Under Pressure: The Myth of Work-Life Balance

In this episode, hosts John Tinnin, MFT, and Lynn Roush, LPC, sit down with David and Molly Cover, a couple who found themselves navigating multiple job losses, major career transitions, the discovery of ADHD, and the anxiety and grief that came with all of it.

Listen in as David and Molly share honestly about what happened when their plans collided with a reality they couldn’t control, and how the pressure affected their marriage, their parenting, their identities, and their faith. As they turned to God, counseling, and their community for support, they learned to navigate their anxieties rather than be controlled by them.

Listen: Myth of Work-Life Balance

Read: Myth of Work-Life Balance

Performing Under Pressure: Doing Business with Integrity

In this eye-opening episode, Austin sits down with Clint Guier, an executive leader who has spent more than two decades with the same company. Clint’s journey from a farm kid in small-town Missouri to an executive vice president offers a window into the everyday realities of leadership: making decisions that affect hundreds of people, knowing when to delegate, and learning from the people who have gone before him.

But this conversation goes beyond strategies for succeeding in the business world. Clint reflects honestly on the ways pressure has shaped him over the years, including the temptation to seek approval, the cost of carrying stress alone, and the impact that unprocessed pressure can have on the people closest to us.

Listen: Doing Business with Integrity

Read: Doing Business with Integrity

Performing Under Pressure: It’s Kinda Chic to Be You

In this spirited episode, Lynn sits down with Ella Swindle, a senior setter for the University of Texas Longhorns volleyball team who helped lead her team to an NCAA National Championship as a freshman. As a setter, Ella calls the plays, directs the offense, and has to reset quickly after every point. But some of the most significant pressure she’s faced hasn’t come from the volleyball court at all.

For Ella, college athletics has become a place where questions of performance, identity, expectations, and faith collide. She opens up about the internal voices that tell her she’s not enough, and the hard work of learning to distinguish truth from lies. Along the way, she has discovered the importance of silence, stepping away from social media, and becoming her own biggest cheerleader.

Listen: It's Kinda Chic to Be Your

Read: It's Kinda Chic to Be You

Performing Under Pressure: The Voice of the Tigers

In this stunning conclusion to our series, Shay sits down with none other than the Voice of the Tigers, Mike Kelly, to talk about his remarkable career behind the microphone. For more than three decades, Mike has stepped into high-pressure moments to give listeners a clear picture of the plays unfolding in front of him.

Along the way, he has called more than 1,000 Mizzou basketball broadcasts and hundreds of consecutive football games, earning the respect of fans and fellow broadcasters. He talks candidly with Shay about not having all the answers, being kind to himself when he makes a mistake, and the importance of having people who will stay beside you when life gets hard.

Listen: The Voice of the Tigers

Read: The Voice of the Tigers

In this stunning conclusion to our Performing Under Pressure series, Shay Roush, M.Div., sits down with none other than the Voice of the Tigers, Mike Kelly, to talk about his remarkable career behind the microphone. For more than three decades, Mike has stepped gracefully into high-pressure moments to give listeners a clear picture of the plays unfolding in front of him.

Along the way, he has called more than 1,000 Mizzou basketball broadcasts and hundreds of consecutive football games, earning the respect of fans and fellow broadcasters. He talks candidly with Shay about not having all the answers, being kind to himself when he makes a mistake, and the importance of having people who will stay beside you when life gets hard.

His story also reveals the people and relationships behind a remarkable career—from mentors who opened doors and taught him the craft to coaches, players, families, and friends. You might be surprised that behind the polished calls, Mike still gets a little nervous before a game. But he believes that nervous energy is evidence that you care deeply about the opportunity in front of you.

Throughout this series, we’ve heard from real people who handle pressure not by avoiding hard moments, but learning how to move through them. Whatever your calling, your challenges, or the pressures you carry, we hope these stories encourage you to use the gifts you’ve been given and become the person you’re capable of becoming. In the end, your legacy isn’t about professional accomplishments, awards, and acclaim—it’s about the way you love God and the people around you.

Listen Now

Highlights from this Interview

Shay: Hi everyone, I have a special guest with me today. If you’ve followed Mizzou sports at all over the last three decades, you know this voice. Mike Kelly is the radio play-by-play announcer for Mizzou football and basketball. As the Voice of the Tigers, he’s had over 1,000 broadcasts and not missed a single game since 1994.

He’s won Missouri Sportscaster of the Year seven times. He’s in the Missouri Sports Hall of Fame. Too many achievements to mention. Mike, welcome to the podcast. It’s an honor to have you here.

Mike: Thank you so much for having me. Just to clarify, I’ve done over 1,000 broadcasts with Mizzou basketball, and missed a game or two, but not missed any with football.

Shay: Well, then, even AI can make mistakes. Do you know how many football games that is?

Mike: 396. Lord willing, if I can make it to the Mississippi State game, that would be 400 consecutive games.

Shay: We got to know each other when I was the Mizzou chaplain. I think that you are one of the best sports broadcasters out there. My wife would say the same. Last year, we were driving somewhere and listening to you. Lynn is not really a sports fan, but after listening to you call a game, she said that you are really good at what you do. And Lynn’s dad is Erwin Lutzer, a well-known pastor and teacher, so she definitely knows great speaking.

Mike: That’s very kind. Sometimes people come up and tell me that they turn down the TV volume and listen to the radio broadcast while they’re watching. It’s very humbling that people find my work acceptable.

Shay: Let me start off by asking, what makes a good sports broadcaster?

Mike: In radio, you have to always remember that it’s incumbent upon the broadcaster to paint the picture. You’ve got an open, clear palette. And for the listener, no matter where they might be, you’re painting a picture for their imagination to see what is going on on the field or on the court, while they’re doing whatever task they might be doing.

I think the other important thing is the ability to call the play. That was a piece of advice that Jack Buck gave me before I called my first game at Mizzou. I always refer to him as Mr. Buck because of the profound amount of respect that I have for him. Mr. Buck said, “Call the play.”

Shay: What does that mean?

Mike: It means that you don’t know who’s listening. You may think because you’re calling Missouri games that most of the listening audience are Missouri fans, but there also might be the other team’s fans or neutral fans. Call the play with an equal amount of description, inflection, and enthusiasm for whatever the play might be, whether it’s in Missouri’s favor or the other team’s favor.

He would also say, “I don’t care what you think about the referee. You’re not one. I don’t care what you think about the coaches. You’re not one. You’re a broadcaster. So call the play.”

Shay: That’s really good. How do you have enthusiasm for both teams if you lean to one side?

Mike: You make sure to give justice to every play that happens in front of you. Since radio is a medium of imagination, you paint a picture for the listener. Something I tell young broadcasters is, you need to have your own unique style. And not get caught up in your notes. Even though you may have facts to share, you can lose the pace of the game if you focus on your notes.

Shay: Your broadcasting career goes back many years. You started by calling women’s volleyball games, is that right?

Mike: I had been at the University of Illinois in Champaign after graduating from Southern Illinois University in Carbondale. After one opportunity didn’t work out, I was hired by Jim Manley, the father of one of my good friends. He was the program director at WDWS and also the morning host.

The 1985 Illinois women’s volleyball team won about 20 consecutive matches to begin the season. It was apparent that they were going to the NCAA tournament. The powers that be at the radio station made the decision that we were going to broadcast the NCAA tournament matches. They asked me to call the games, and I said, I’m in.

Shay: How do you learn to call volleyball?

Mike: Mike Hebert, a legendary figure in Illinois volleyball history, was the head coach at the time. His assistant was a gentleman named Don Harden. I went over to the old Kenny Gym on the Illinois campus where they used to play their matches in practice, and sat on the baseline during practice for several days in a row. Don would call out exactly what was taking place on the court. This is a serve, a pass, set, spike, dig, pass, block, cover, set. You learn the terminology, but you also learn the flow of the game.

Volleyball is a really unique sport in that it never yearns for excitement—there’s always movement. That was a really good foundation for me as a young broadcaster. It taught me pacing. It taught me how to selectively edit in my mind based on the flow of the match.

Shay: You ended up at KMOX, which is the flagship radio station in St. Louis for Cardinal games. How did that come about?

Mike: I auditioned for the position in April of 1988. I had maybe a little bit of an edge on some of those that were interested in that position because for two years prior to that, I was a correspondent for KMOX on the University of Illinois Sports. Anytime something happened with one of the games, I would send them “voicers”, little snippets they could play on the air, as well as sound bites from coaches and players.

After the audition, I went home. But I didn’t hear anything. I had a mentor named Jim Holder that I had met when the Chicago Bears were practicing down in Champaign. I asked Jim, “How do I get this job at KMOX?” He told me I needed to get to the legendary Robert Highland, who was the general manager of KMOX and senior vice president of CBS. Jim warned me that I’d need to call Robert before 6 am, because that’s when Robert went to mass.

So I decided to call Robert every Friday at 4:30 am. I’d ask if I got the job and hear, “We’re still looking.” But eventually the phone rang at 4:30 and I knew I had the job. It was an amazing opportunity; I had the chance to work with and learn from Jack Buck, Bob Costas, Bob Hardy, and Bill Wilkerson. Just absolute legends.

Shay: That is so awesome. Let me ask you, which one is more challenging to call, football or basketball?

Mike: They each have their challenges. With football, you have 22 bodies on the field at the same time—11 on offense, 11 on defense—and there’s a large number of different things that could take place during one snap of the ball. With basketball, the pace of the game creates a challenge.

Shay: Are there two or three games that are highlights in your mind where you did a great job with calls? Or times where you made a mistake?

Mike: Anytime someone asks me after a game, “How’d the call go?”, my answer has always been, “I hope I did it justice.” That’s the way I’ve always tried to approach it.

There have been times when I’ve been upset with myself about missing a call. I remember the Cotton Bowl that Missouri most recently played in against Ohio State. We’re at the opposite end of the field, corner of the end zone, and Mizzou throws a touchdown pass to Luther Burden. From my vantage point, I thought it was intercepted. No, he caught it. I could get upset with myself, but there’s no perfect broadcast.

One of my most embarrassing moments was as a PA announcer for the Cardinals. There was a clip that would go on your belt and you would engage the button for the microphone and announce the batter. One time, the button was still engaged, and I leaned into the microphone and yawned as loud as someone possibly can. It billowed through Busch Stadium to the point where the umpire called timeout and ripped off his mask and turned around and looked up. I literally dove under a table.

Shay: That’s hilarious! Part of the charm of what you do is being able to develop relationships with a variety of different people and see those people thrive in their positions throughout the course of time.

Mike: When you’re doing the play-by-play, you’re also developing relationships with coaches and families. Whenever the leadership changes, it impacts a lot of people. I give credit to the late Larry Smith for putting Missouri in a position to go to back-to-back bowl games in ‘97 and ‘98. And then Gary Pinkel came in and provided consistency. And now Coach Drinkwitz has given Missouri fans an opportunity to dream of things that they’ve never thought possible.

Shay: It’s incredible the number of people you’ve encountered that have had positions with either the football team or the basketball team.

Mike: Every conversation is a networking opportunity, right? I tell that to young people all the time. I’ve been very blessed that my network has grown through the years because of the relationships I’ve been able to develop.

Shay: Do you get nervous before you call a game? Basketball or football?

Mike: Both. I was nervous before I sat down here today with you. If you don’t feel some nervous energy before a game, stop, quit, walk away. Because that nervous energy is the manifestation of excitement for your job and for the opportunity to perform your craft.

Shay: Let me switch gears just a little bit with you, Mike. We’ve talked about your job and everything that you do professionally. But what keeps you grounded in life?

Mike: Shout out to my wife, Laurie. We will celebrate our 38th wedding anniversary coming up on August 20th. Looking forward to that. And we have three wonderful daughters. They’re a blessing.

I’ve always tried to be humble. When you first get into this business, it’s easy to think that you’re here because of your immense talent. And that’s not it at all. God has blessed you and given you an opportunity to use your talents. None of this happens without God’s master plan.

I read a book once by Gale Sayers, legendary running back for the Chicago Bears, about how God should be your number one, family’s two, and you are third. That was the name of his book, “I Am Third.” Am I a sinner? 100%. Do I pray for grace and for mercy every day? Yes. Am I extremely blessed? No question about it.

Shay: Our men’s group that meets Thursdays for lunch has been a great support for me, and I think it has for you too. Texting each other when we need prayer, encouraging each other.

Mike: Absolutely. I’ve learned how to accept that I don’t have all the answers. And there are times that I need someone to help me from a counseling standpoint. I’ve been able to lean on that over the last couple of years. And I think that’s been a very healthy, nurturing.

Shay: I think men get in trouble when they isolate themselves from relationships. You may get some of that from your wife or your kids, but we need other men in our lives to grow and to sharpen one another, to bounce things off. Sometimes just to emote, and know that that person’s still going to love you and care for you and stick by you in the hard times.

Let me ask a final question here. Someday, when you’re old and gray, what do you want your legacy to be?

Mike: Well, I’ll never have gray hair, but I think this is a great question. I would want people to say that he was a good husband, a good father. That he showed up to work enthusiastically to do his job consistently, and he was accountable along the way.

Shay: There’s a writer who talks about your résumé virtues versus your eulogy virtues. Everybody has their résumé virtues. That’s what they’re going to read off at your funeral: “He was a broadcaster and won these awards”. But your eulogy virtues are the things that people are going to get up and say about you at your funeral. Was he kind to people? Did he love people? That’s what people remember.

I just want to say I appreciate your friendship. I’ve seen you involved in so many things over the years and it’s people like you that make our community such a great place to live. Thank you for being on our podcast!

Mike: Thanks for the invitation. Love you. I’ve enjoyed it!

In this spirited episode of Performing Under Pressure, Lynn Roush, LPC, sits down with Ella Swindle, a senior setter for the University of Texas Longhorns volleyball team who helped lead her team to an NCAA National Championship as a freshman. As a setter, Ella occupies one of the most demanding positions on the court: she calls the plays, directs the offense, and has to reset quickly after every point. But some of the most significant pressure she’s faced hasn’t come from the volleyball court at all.

For Ella, college athletics has become a place where questions of performance, identity, expectations, and faith collide. She opens up about the internal voices that tell her she’s not enough, and the hard work of learning to distinguish truth from lies. Along the way, she has discovered the importance of finding solitude, stepping away from social media, and becoming her own biggest cheerleader.

At the heart of Ella’s story is a growing confidence that her identity isn’t ultimately determined by a scoreboard, a coach, a career, or other people’s expectations. As she looks beyond volleyball towards her future, she’s beginning to define success not simply by what she achieves, but by the kind of person she becomes. In a world constantly telling us who we should be, Ella has discovered something freeing: it’s kinda chic to be you.

Listen Now

Highlights from this Interview

Lynn: I’m excited to talk with our special guest, Ella Swindle, about how she finds it ‘kinda chic’ to be herself while navigating high-pressure college athletics and the weight of others’ expectations. Ella, welcome! You’re coming to us from Austin, right?

Ella: Thank you so much. Yes, I am in Austin, Texas, starting preseason and getting things going.

Lynn: You grew up here in Columbia, Missouri and played volleyball with my daughter Emma in high school.

Ella: Back in the glory days! I think about those times a lot.

Lynn: I’ve enjoyed watching you pursue your passion and seeing where you are now. Tell us about your status as a college athlete and what you’re majoring in.

Ella: I’m a senior at the University of Texas, but I technically have another year of eligibility. They just passed the five-for-five rule. So that’s on the plate if I want it. Other than that, I have no idea what the future has in store for me. I’m an advertising major, which I think is so fun. I’ll graduate in December.

Lynn: Take me back to growing up in a family where athletics were important. How did you know that volleyball was your passion?

Ella: I didn’t think about volleyball until middle school when my sister Claire was playing and I would pepper with her in the driveway. I thought it was so much fun to play with your friends on a team, because up until then I had been a swimmer and a tennis player. So playing on a team sparked my love for volleyball. I also happen to be pretty good at it.

Lynn: The position of setter is such a critical, high-pressure position on the court. How did you end up in that spot? Explain to us a little bit about the role of setter on a volleyball team.

Ella: The setter is essentially the quarterback. You’re calling all the plays, you’re running the offense, you’re making sure that everyone knows what they’re doing every single play. You have to be steady on the court and reset very quickly so that you only have fifteen seconds between each play. You get to be creative, which is how my brain works.

Lynn: I would imagine it’s taken you a while from where you started to where you are now to understand the rhythm and read the other team. Is that a skill that comes from lot of practice over time?

Ella: I didn’t realize how intricate my role is until I got to college. In high school, you’re out there playing and not thinking much about what the other team is doing. What I do now is have a lot of energy and control the direction of the ball. So there are a bunch of variables that play into being a setter.

Lynn: What would you say is your best day as a volleyball player? And what is your worst?

Ella: If you have a great practice, you can walk out of the gym feeling good. If I’m good in my head, and we win the game, that’s a good day. Bad days can happen whenever you’re not in a great mental headspace. My hard days are whenever you’re fighting for yourself a lot. They’re not necessarily physical, but mental.

Lynn: Are there voices in your head that say positive things or negative things to you? What’s the difference? How do you know which messages are true?

Ella: That’s something that I actually talk about with my team a lot. The other week we were having Bible study talking about how to discern God’s voice versus the devil. It’s easy to hear a bunch of lies disguised as truth. I’ve had to learn how to discern what is true about me and what is not true about me. A huge part of the growth that I’ve experienced here is learning how to be my biggest cheerleader.

Lynn: Could you identify one of the lies that you’ve had to combat with truth?

Ella: There are two. One, I’m not enough, and two, I’m just not a good volleyball player. Those are two lies that I’ve heard over and over again. I have to walk into the gym each morning and sort through things in my brain. Starting out as a freshman setter and winning a national championship, that’s as high as you can get. It was an incredible blessing. And it also set the tone that anything less than that is not enough.

But I’ve learned that I’m enough because God has placed me here. I’ve been told to leave. I’ve chosen to stay. I firmly believe that I’m supposed to be here. I’ve seen so many blessings come out of it. I know the truth about myself because I’ve done some deep work to discover what God says about me.

Lynn: So being able to go back to your core identity as I’m a child of God, I’m loved, I’ve been placed here for a purpose, on purpose. I can imagine that you have coaches, friends, family, fans, the media, all these voices around you telling you what you should do. What does it look like for you to be able to step away, pray, and spend time with God?

Ella: Something that I try to do is to create some silence for myself, because you go to the gym, you’re surrounded by twenty other girls and your coaches, it’s loud, there’s whistles, and then you leave. And I live with other girls, which is amazing, but you’re always surrounded by noise and you’re with other people all the time. I need my alone time to recharge.

This is the first time in my life I’ve been sure of who I am and what is important to me because I’ve gotten to actually get to know myself. That comes from asking yourself some really deep, difficult questions. Spending time alone and getting off of social media.

Lynn: As a therapist, I’ve worked with a lot of college students, and I see that between 18 and 22, essentially the college years, there is so much identity formation happening at a rapid pace. Can you point to a specific moment in time when you realized, it’s kinda chic to just be me?

Ella: My sophomore year defined me and changed me a lot as a human. Now I’m going through another process of self-discovery. It’s just pushed me more and more to seek God. Volleyball has been a great path for me to pursue a lot of dreams and for great things to come to my life.

All of those moments have led me closer to Jesus and made me who I am today. Even though I am going through another trial right now, I wouldn’t take myself out of it because I’ve seen from past experience that it can only lead me to a greater place.

Lynn: You’re so young to have discovered the truths of life. Your Aunt Gayla was a very, very good friend of mine. And she modeled to us and to everyone else that at the end of the day, if your life is not built on God, then you’ve built your life on sinking sand because eventually we will all lose our health, we will lose our looks, we will lose our professions and careers.

Because you and Gayla were close and she has left such a lasting legacy for all of us, I want to ask you, when you’re 70 and you’re looking back on your life, what do you want your legacy to be?

Ella: I love this question for so many reasons. I want to be remembered as someone who never took herself out of it and remained under trial, and always fought for good.

Something that I learned from Aunt Gayla was to fight for yourself because God believes in you. There’s a quote that says, “Don’t give up, because someone went to heaven believing in you.” I hold that so close to my heart because my my entire volleyball career here at Texas has been such a reminder of how good and powerful God is.

My Aunt Gayla went to heaven believing in me. It makes me emotional because if I could sit down with her right now and tell her everything that’s happened and how I’ve responded to it, I know that she would be so proud of me. The last conversation I had with Gayla was in a coffee shop in Colorado and I was in that exact spot again this past year. I sat there and remembered our last conversation.

It was a ‘God moment’. She looked at me while we were the middle of talking about something completely different. She was like, “I don’t know why, but I have this powerful vision of you as a person and I’m going to be praying over Ella the person. This world wants you to be a great volleyball player, but I want you to be the person that God has created you to be.”

Lynn: When you define winning as being a person of integrity and walking with Jesus and leaving a legacy of being who God created you to be, that flips everything upside down because that has nothing to do with what you do on the volleyball court. That’s who you are and that’s something that can never be taken away from you, no matter what happens.

Ella: Psalm 139 talks about God creating and knowing you exactly as you are. You’re beautiful in his image. Whenever I go through a trial, he knew about it all along. That gives me hope under pressure. God is there and is with me. What a blessing.

Lynn: It’s great that you can cling to those promises of God that he’s in control, that he loves us, that he has a purpose, that he has a plan at such a young age. A lot of people don’t learn those things until later in life. Maybe for you there’s been something about being in this pressure cooker at such a young age that has accelerated the process of learning about yourself and finding your identity in Christ.

I have so enjoyed talking to you, Ella. This has been such an inspiring conversation. I hope our listeners take away the narrative that it’s ‘kinda chic to be you’ because you can’t be anyone else no matter how hard you try! Thank you so much for being generous with your time and I hope to see you in Columbia sometime soon.

Ella: Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. It’s been so great.

While it’s tempting to think you’ve got it made once you reach the top, the most effective leaders never stop growing. They continue to seek out wise mentors, invest in supportive communities, and bring their struggles into the light rather than trying to manage everything on their own.

In this eye-opening episode of Performing Under Pressure, Austin Conner, PLPC, sits down with Clint Guier, an executive leader who has spent more than two decades with the same company. Clint’s journey from a farm kid in small-town Missouri to the executive vice president of a rapidly growing organization offers a window into the everyday realities of leadership: making decisions that affect hundreds of people, navigating growth and risk, knowing when to delegate, and learning from the people who have gone before him.

But this conversation goes beyond strategies for succeeding in the business world. Clint reflects honestly on the ways pressure has shaped him over the years, including the temptation to seek approval, the cost of carrying stress alone, and the impact that unprocessed pressure can have on the people closest to us.

At the heart of Clint’s approach is a shift in perspective: from performing for approval to recognizing that his work is an opportunity to steward what God has given him and serve others well. Whether you’re leading a company, building a career, or simply trying to navigate the pressures of work and family, this conversation offers an encouraging look at what it can mean to pursue excellence without making life all about yourself.

Listen Now

Highlights from this Interview

Austin: Today we’re going to enter the realm of the business world. To help me do that is our guest for this episode, Clint Guier. Throughout this episode, we’re going to hear about the specific pressures that Clint faces, but also speak to the broader pressures that everybody in the business world faces.

Clint and his wife, Jen, have been around The Crossing for almost 20 years, which is crazy, because I’ve never met them until now! Clint is a humble, a steady, and faithful presence wherever he finds himself. He works hard. He doesn’t complain. And he believes how you go about your business, and in life in general, is just as important as what you accomplish.

Clint, thanks so much for being with me today in the studio. Tell our listeners a little bit about who’s in your family, how you guys got involved in The Crossing, and then we’ll talk about your job.

Clint: Thanks for having me. My wife and I started dating back in 2005, and were looking for a church to attend together. She had some colleagues that were attending The Crossing, so we tried it, and after that first sermon we knew we were home, and we’ve been attending ever since. We got engaged that Valentine’s Day of 2007 and then got married August of the same year. We had three kids in three years, and now they are 13, 14, and 16 years old.

Austin: Wow, and you survived! Tell us about your job and what that looks like for you.

Clint: I’ve spent my entire career at a company called Senior Benefit Services. I’m the executive vice president, so I basically touch everything that happens there on a daily basis. We’re a Medicare brokerage. Our slogan is, “We make Medicare easy.” Medicare is a government entitlement program for people 65 and older or people with disabilities, and it can be confusing. We help our customers navigate those waters every year.

Austin: How did you find yourself this role?

Clint: I’m a farm boy. Grew up in a small town called Sweet Springs, Missouri. I was ready to get out of town and move on to bigger and better things. So I went to Mizzou, majoring in agriculture. The summer after my sophomore year, I interned as a crop scout in Watsika, Illinois, in the middle of nowhere. I was wandering around in corn and soybean fields all summer looking for problems with pests and weeds and reporting back to the farmers. I realized that was not my life’s calling.

The next summer, I was looking for some sales experience. I had a fraternity brother that was working for Senior Benefit Services at that time. I’d given him a hard time for being in the insurance business but then came groveling to him for an internship that summer. After that internship, I knew without a doubt that’s what I wanted to do after I graduated from Mizzou.

Austin: Can you describe your trajectory at the company?

Clint: Everybody in our company starts at internships or entry-level positions and works their way up. So I’ve done about everything there is to do. I started as an intern, became a sales agent, and moved into management while growing my client base. I started recruiting people and building teams. Now, 23 years later, I’m running that division of the company.

Austin: Were you asked to come to the management side or did you have to advocate for yourself and say, hey, I would like this opportunity?

Clint: The two gentlemen that were running the company were mentors of mine as well. They would meet with us at least quarterly one-on-one and we were having lunch one day and they wanted to know what I thought my future looked like with the company. I told them that I saw the impact they were having and wanted to do what they were doing. They both were very supportive and excited for me. A theme throughout my career is having great mentors to encourage me.

Austin: What tasks at your job are common to other businesses you’ve seen? And what are ones that are pretty unique to your role?

Clint: We’re a sales and marketing organization, and we’ve got customer service and HR and all the things. You’ve got to market and generate leads and provide amazing customer service and those things are very common to other businesses.

What’s unique with what I’m doing is partnering with other companies, starting in 2021, acquiring small agencies and books of business. Managing that kind of risk is something that I never imagined myself doing, but it’s allowed us to double the size of the company in the last five years.

Austin: You mentioned that some of the new tasks you’re doing aren’t in your wheelhouse and aren’t normal for you. Have you figured out at what point you say, “This is not in my wheelhouse, so I’m going to delegate that and give that to somebody who is,” versus, “This is on my plate and I need to get better”?

Clint: I figured out early on that just because you think you’re the best at doing something doesn’t mean you’re the one who should be doing it. If you have to be in control of everything, you’re going to limit your company’s growth. We have such a depth of amazing leaders within our company, which makes delegation easy and allows me to focus on other areas of the company where I can have a greater impact.

Austin: I imagine a lot of people listening are thinking, “Well, that’d be great to have amazing leaders and bosses and mentors that I trust. But that’s not true of my business.” If you didn’t have mentors to rely on, how would you navigate that?

Clint: If you don’t have those people in your sphere, you can find them. You can find inspiration from people in the past through good books. Then you model that within your organization. Or you can move on to another organization that’s in line with your values.

Austin: Have there been any helpful books that you would recommend?

Clint: My all-time favorite book on leadership is Team of Rivals by Doris Kearns Goodwin. It’s about the political genius of Abraham Lincoln, and there are so many amazing lessons, including his ability to forgive and not hold grudges against people who were trying to harm him. I’ve seen through my personal walk with Christ the grace that’s been extended to me, and extending that grace to others goes a long way.

Austin: I think you got that right. Let me ask a little bit of a different question, and it’s explicit in our series title. Where do you feel the most pressure to perform in your job right now?

Clint: The word “perform” is an interesting one. If I’m being transparent, I’ve been performing most of my life. I was the youngest of three siblings. I performed to get attention. Move into middle school and high school, and then you’re performing for your peers. Take that into college. For me, that meant joining a fraternity, performing there, trying to fit in, trying to be liked and admired by others.

I certainly performed for Jen to get her to say yes when I asked her to marry me. And then you move into the business world. And then with social media thrown into that, sometimes you find yourself performing for people you don’t even know.

When you realize that your true calling is to serve God, you can transition from performing to becoming a steward of the gifts he’s given you. The decisions that I make and how I conduct myself out there in the marketplace potentially impacts all of our 150 employees and the 44,000-plus customers that we serve.

That’s a healthy pressure there because I realize it’s not about me. It’s not about getting others’ approval. It’s about positively impacting all the people who are counting on me to make good decisions.

Austin: How has pressure taken a toll on you, and how have you learned to manage it?

Clint: Early on, I wouldn’t talk about it. I would internalize it, compartmentalize it. You’re going home to a new wife, a new marriage. You’re trying to navigate that with all the challenges of work. Then you throw three kids in three years on top of that. You’re going into chaos when you get home from a long day.

I would lean into alcohol, lean into really destructive behaviors. My stress would manifest itself in anger directed at all the wrong people because I didn’t have a great outlet for that. By the grace of God, through The Crossing, I joined a men’s group in 2008. That’s been amazing for me. And Jen and I joined a small group in 2009.

The Crossing counseling ministry has been a major blessing to me. I meet with your fellow counselor, John, on a regular basis. Seeking wise counsel and bringing my struggles to God has helped me so much. Thankfully, I’ve had people in my life who have encouraged me to bring those potentially destructive things out into the light.

Austin: I really appreciate you being honest. A lot of us can relate to facing pressures at work that your family doesn’t quite understand. I can’t always be 100% present when I’m home even when my kids want ‘dad’. So I can relate to what you’re saying. Our listeners who are in the business world and have kids can too.

Clint: John gave me a helpful analogy to understand how my anger can affect Jen. He’s like, “It’s just whoever gets in the crosshairs.” It’s not that the individual in the crosshairs has done anything wrong. Many times, it’s the ones that we love the most and we’re closest with that get the brunt of our anger.

Austin: That’s good to remember. What has it looked like to incorporate your faith and Jesus into your job?

Clint: I’m very blessed to be a part of an organization where our founder was a Christian. We pray before the meal at company events, and I rarely hear any pushback from that. I want to share my faith to others through how I carry myself. I often use Scripture because when God presents it to me in a way that’s blatantly obvious, I’m inclined to share that, whether it’s in a meeting or in a one-on-one conversation.

Austin: That’s good. Sounds like you’ve been blessed to have a Christian founder. Any advice for somebody who is not in a supportive environment?

Clint: Pray for those people in your organization. We serve an amazing God who can do miraculous things. When people behave in a hostile way, it means they’re hurting. The only way to impact that person for Christ is if they know you and trust you. That’s hard to do if they’re ornery or downright mean. But through prayer and over time, it’s remarkable what God can do in people’s lives.

Austin: I’m convicted and I want to do that more for myself. You mentioned that you’re just now starting to accrue a little bit of wisdom. What’s the best piece of advice you have been given?

Clint: One of my mentors told me early on, “Clint, never take financial advice from somebody who’s not doing as well as you financially.” I’ve extended that into every area of life. Never take marital advice from somebody whose marriage isn’t doing as well as yours. Parenting advice, etc. There’s a lot of conflicting advice out there. So be discerning with who you listen to.

The other one is to put gossip to death. I’ve made mistakes acting off second- or third-hand information. As a leader, you have the power to hurt people if you make decisions from misinformation. Unfortunately, I’ve hurt people. I’ve had to apologize. They say knowledge is power, but it’s the application of knowledge that’s actually power. Try not to make the same mistakes twice.

Austin: Let’s pretend you are the old, wise sage; maybe your hair’s a little gray or almost white. Any perspective or advice you would give to someone right now who is just starting out in the business world?

Clint: Something I find myself saying a lot is “Comparison is the thief of joy”. It’s so easy now to compare yourself to others, and I am guilty of it. You jump on LinkedIn and it looks like everybody is killing it out there, right? I’m not as good as these people. That’s the enemy robbing your joy.

Lean into the gifts that God has given you to serve other people. Make it about them and not you, and you’re going to find yourself in a much better position in life. If you can do your job in a way that is others-focused and not you-focused, you’ll have better results.

Austin: Are there any particular scriptures that have been helpful for you? If you’re in the business world, it seems like it would be great to just have one verse as a foundation to stand on.

Clint: Early on in my career, one of the agents I was working with was a Christian and in his email signature, he put John 3:30: “He must increase while I must decrease.” It’s so beautifully simple. It’s not about me. It’s about God. We’ve got limited time on this earth to serve others and glorify him. The less we can make it about ourselves and the more we can make it about God, the better outcome we’re going to get.

Austin: That’s so helpful! My last question for you. Anything else you’d like to share that we didn’t get to?

Clint: I’d like to encourage anybody listening to realize that you’re not alone. The work I’ve done on myself through your ministry has been so helpful. John told me that everybody should be in a counseling, and I agree with that. Seek help, look at your life, and peel back the layers of your onion.

Austin: Clint, thank you so much for being here. I’m encouraged. I’m confident that people listening are encouraged as well. Listeners, we hope that you come back for more episodes in our Performing Under Pressure series.

A career takes an unexpected turn. A job disappears. A diagnosis changes the way you understand yourself. And the carefully constructed picture of work, family, and the future begins to unravel, exposing that work-life balance doesn’t actually exist.

In this episode of Performing Under Pressure, hosts John Tinnin, MFT, and Lynn Roush, LPC, sit down with David and Molly Cover, a couple who found themselves navigating multiple job losses, major career transitions, the discovery of ADHD, and the anxiety and grief that came with all of it.

Listen in as David and Molly share honestly about what happened when their plans collided with a reality they couldn’t control, and how the pressure affected their marriage, their parenting, their identities, and their faith. As they turned to God, counseling, and their community for support, they learned to navigate their anxieties rather than be controlled by them.

But this isn’t a story about having everything figured out. It’s a story about being disoriented, surrendering the illusion of control, and learning to reorient around what matters most. If you find yourself losing balance and going in a direction you didn’t expect, God may be redirecting your destination and giving you the gift of learning to rely on him.

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Highlights from this Interview

John: Today we’re going to talk with some collision experts. But it’s not what you might think. We’re tackling the colliding worlds of work and family life. You’ve heard the phrase work-life balance, and we’re going to suggest today that that is a bit of a myth.

Lynn and I are in the studio today with David and Molly Cover. David is president of the Senior Company, and Molly is a full-time working professional in digital relations. Molly, why don’t you give us a quick picture of what your work looks like day-to-day.

Molly: I work full-time here at The Crossing as co-director of our digital team. I manage a team of 12 people that involves a lot of one-on-one meetings and meetings with other teams. At home, we have four active, busy boys, ages 14, 12, 10, and 7. I am in the office as full-time as I can be. I work at home a little bit in the summer just to spend time with our kids.

David: It’s been exciting having this summer, all four kids at home, no childcare other than a dog kind of barking at us. Figuring out how to live life in the chaos.

John: David, you are president of a company. Can you tell me what this looks like for you?

David: The Senior Company does in-home care for seniors. We want to be a trusted care partner. Navigating aging is really hard, whether you’re the child trying to care for your parents or you have your spouse needing care. We want to keep everyone safe, seen, and supported with in-home care.

I’ve just started doing it; I think I’m about four months in at the time of recording this. It’s not a space I ever thought I’d be in, but the impact this company has on people’s lives is stunning. I’m privileged to be a part of it.

John: We’re going to frame this episode in three sections. The first one is how you thought life was going to go. We call that orientation. The second phase is disorientation. That’s what happens when you hit a wall and things don’t go according to plan. The third one is reorienting yourself to what matters most in life.

Lynn: David and Molly, I’ve known both of you guys for a long time. It’s fun to see you together, grown up, raising a family. I’m excited about today’s conversation because listeners are going to hear not how you’ve got it all figured out, but how you’re still thick in the weeds of figuring things out.

Take us back three or four years ago to the orientation stage. What was happening in your life at that time and what were your plans for the future?

Molly: Three or four years ago, David was working full-time. From when our first son was born, I had been staying home but also working part-time. Back then, I was increasing my hours with the plan to get the four kids in school. I still had one at home. Once he was in school, I planned to ease my way back into work and figure out what worked for our family. I felt like I had the flexibility to do that with David’s work and the way we had structured our lives.

Three years ago, I got the opportunity to go from part-time to full-time at The Crossing. My boss at the time was very gracious, but he said, if you want this job, I need you full-time in the office. You’ll need to figure out what that looks like for your family. That was a big turning point for us.

Our lives went from normal American dream-y, dad works full-time, mom’s staying home, kids are in school, to now we need to restructure our lives and figure out what it looks like for both of us to work full-time. I had the illusion that if I continued to make the right choices, I could control the outcome.

Lynn: What about you, David? Tell us about where you were at in your career.

David: I’d had an opportunity to move from full-time ministry into the workplace outside of the church. It was exciting, because I had the potential to make more money than I ever had in ministry. We had bought a dream home in a dream neighborhood here in town. I got a new car that I just love. But then things started to go off the rails.

John: What happened that caused it to stop working so well?

David: When I left full-time ministry, I joined a start-up. Right after I started, the CEO who hired me was fired. They found another role for me in the company. But that launched a period of instability. I felt like I couldn’t find my lane, I couldn’t find clarity on how to use my gifts. I had imposter syndrome. There was pressure to go to work, maintain my salary.

Around that time I was approached about working for a nonprofit, and I didn’t have to think much about it; I jumped right in because I had been struggling with sleepless nights and insecurities. I told Molly she needed to work full-time. We were making decisions from a place of anxiety.

During this time one of our sons was struggling. After he was diagnosed with ADHD, while talking to his doctor, I realized that I have it too. After that conversation, I just laid on the ground. I felt broken because I couldn’t make the new job work and the way I viewed myself was changing.

Lynn: You guys had reached the ‘wall’; the tearing of the fabric of what you thought you had known. That’s a place of surrender and humility. That must’ve felt really like an undoing.

Molly: I had to wrestle with believing that God is good, but that doesn’t mean giving me the things I want or need; he has something better that will look different. I remember us sitting in our living room counting our losses in this season. It felt really heavy. I had to ask, What do I ultimately believe?

Lynn: How did it affect your marriage?

Molly: As hard as that season was, it made us have to communicate on a different level that we never had to before. There was a blessing to that because it could have just been a season where we both withdraw completely. But because we were so isolated, we clung to each other.

David: Because of the pressure I experienced navigating what was next, and learning about my brain, I found myself withdrawing and even dissociating. The kids would be playing around me and I was not paying any attention. It took effort to connect. For men, you lose a job, then you lose your identity, and then you lose community. There’s a lot of shame.

Lynn: What was the impact on your kids during this time?

Molly: We definitely saw the effects of anxiety on our home. We talked with them about it so that they knew what was happening. But my anxiety really came up when the house got messy and chores weren’t done. In fact we’re still repairing from the stress of that season.

David: The story keeps going. I changed jobs and a little over a year after that my department in the nonprofit was laid off. I was back to square one. I started to wonder if God was punishing me for leaving ministry. The whole experience exposed the illusion of control that I thought that I had.

Lynn: The disorienting ‘wall’ comes to everyone differently. For one person, it can be that divorce they don’t want. For another it can be a cancer diagnosis.

John: The gift that God brings in those times, as painful as it is, is showing us our hearts and how much we need to collapse upon him. And I think you guys got to that point.

Lynn: David, the second go-around for you in the job transition, you both decided you wanted to do it differently. How did that look?

Molly: When David found out they were eliminating his position, he said, “We’re not doing the anxiety spiral. We’re not collapsing. We’re not doing that to our kids. We’re not doing that to our marriage.” The biggest difference was reaching out to friends almost immediately. It was still stressful. But people showed up in our lives in that season. And it made all the difference.

David: If there is any advice I’m going to give, it is to run toward community. If you’re walking through something right now and you think you need to handle it alone, that’s probably not true.

John: As you get older and you see friendships come and go, you learn that friendships come in chapters and seasons. We like to think that every friendship is going to be stable. But friendships shift. If someone helps you through one season of life, and then they’re not part of your life, look for others who can be with you.

Lynn: Moving into the third piece of all of this, now you have to reorient to your new reality. What does that look like?

David: I can see how God was working through times I thought were failures, times I thought, okay, God’s putting a hole in our boat and ripping our sails. Well, he was trying to reorient our destination because we were chasing worldly things. I am healthier now spiritually, mentally, and physically. I can navigate my anxieties instead of being driven by them.

Molly: We learned to sit with grief in a new way and we were forced to grow in a way that we wouldn’t have on our own. The life I was living was not making me grow. I’ve learned so much more about God. I’ve grown personally. Our marriage is stronger and better for it. We have a whole new vocabulary in our marriage because of counseling. Not that we have everything figured out!

David: When I’m on empty, I want to withdraw. Sometimes that’s healthy dissociation where I just need a minute. Sometimes it’s not. I’m going to go find a screen or whatever. When Molly’s on empty, she wants to move close and connect. And so we’re just moving away from each other. We have to work to find each other.

John: It’s so cool to see you guys grow and mature through that process. You’ve weathered the storms, not just by hunkering down, but by doing the hard work. It’s going to pay off in dividends.

Lynn: To wrap up our conversation, which I’ve loved, I want to ask each of you: When you’re old and looking back at your life, what do you hope is true?

Molly: I would hope at the end of my life that I will be faithful where God has put me. Whether that’s at work, at home, friendships, in marriage, at my church.

David: I long for significance. Years ago, I would have said that I want to be famous for doing great things for God. But now I want people to see that I walked faithfully through hard times as God’s son.

John: Oh, that’s wonderful. Every Christian has to make that identity shift. That’s our destiny. Proverbs 27:1 says, “Don’t boast about tomorrow because you don’t know what a day may bring forth.” You guys have given us a good picture of learning to live in the present day.

David: I’ve been in a men’s group with you, John, for the last almost two years. The permission you give for people to slow down and be human-sized and to be seen as having weaknesses and still be loved and known has been transformative for me. Thank you for your ministry with this podcast!

What you might not remember is everything happening behind the scenes for that teacher: the stress of classroom management, difficult decisions, competing demands, and quiet sacrifices that made learning seem effortless.

In this revealing episode of our Performing Under Pressure series, Austin Conner, PLPC, sits down with elementary school teacher Lexie Darrough to talk about what it’s really like to stand at the front of a classroom. Their conversation explores teacher burnout, the challenge of caring for both the hearts and minds of the students, the partnership between parents and educators, and the surprising freedom that comes from remembering that God loves every child even more than we do.

Today’s teachers are educators, counselors, mediators, encouragers, detectives, performers, and safe people for children whose lives outside the classroom may be anything but stable. They carry the pressure of helping every student succeed while navigating changing expectations, endless assessments, and the reality that no two children walk through the classroom door with the same needs.

Whether you’re a teacher, a parent, or simply someone who wants to better understand the people shaping the next generation, Lexie’s wisdom offers encouragement for anyone trying to faithfully serve others under pressure.

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Highlights from this Interview

Austin: Today we’re going to hear about the pressures that teachers face, particularly elementary school teachers. My guest is Lexie Darrough. I’ve known Lexie for over 10 years now, first as a college student when she was dating her now-husband Connor. They have four kids. Lexie, welcome to the podcast!

Lexie: Thanks for having me on. Such a delight. I was giggling when you asked me to be on it to begin with because I do not feel equipped, but I know that God will help me able to share some wisdom from the teaching profession that can apply to everyday life.

Austin: We’re going to cover all sorts of questions today about the pressures you face as a teacher. But start by telling us what your current professional roles are and how you ended up there?

Lexie: I knew I wanted to be a teacher from the very beginning because I am a very good boss, as all my little cousins would say growing up. Teaching has always been on my radar. I did a lot of tutoring in high school and realized I love elementary school and love to see the light go off in kids’ brains when they understand a new concept.

I got my bachelor’s at Mizzou and then I got my master’s the year after that at Mizzou all in one year, in an accelerated program. So my first year teaching, I was also getting my master’s, and I had mentors and I had help and I had structure and I was able to use my classroom as way to do research.

I taught at a Title I school here in Columbia for three years. There was a very high population of low income school students. There are lots of social, behavioral, and academic needs there. It was very difficult but also a great experience.

Then I had my first child, Hudson, and decided I wanted to be home. I enjoyed staying home with him until he was about six months, and I realized that I wanted to continue to teach. So for the next eight years, I was a mentor for up-and-coming teachers. That was great because I got to help people who were becoming teachers to get the skills and tools they needed.

This past November I got the itch to go back in the classroom full time. I missed the camaraderie and feeling alive in front of kids. I ended up taking a part-time position at a local private school teaching English to sixth, seventh, and eighth graders, which I have never done before. I was able to do that this past semester while also juggling my roles at the university.

Now, I’ve taken a position teaching third grade this upcoming school year. I am so excited for it. I feel fueled when I’m up in front of a class and able to deliver lessons and see the light bulb moment go off and to be able to celebrate with them. A lot of people would probably feel drained being around kids all day and instead I feel more alive.

Austin: Any crazy teaching stories?

Lexie: You never know what you’re going to get every day and you have to have that laughable ability to just go with the flow when things go crazy. I had a kid that got ticked off enough that he climbed into the ceiling rafters and he was up there for probably 30 minutes living his best life while I had to figure out how to get him down.

Austin: So as a teacher, you are the everything. You are the private investigator. You are the counselor. You are the janitor. You are sometimes the mom or the dad.

Lexie: We don’t know what students have been through when they walk into our classroom. We need to be a calm, cool, safe space for them.

Austin: What kinds of pressures do you face?

Lexie: One challenge is understanding the curriculum, but also understanding the multiple ways that learning needs to be graded and assessed throughout the year. There’s a big push right now for more data, but also we realize that if we’re just assessing and taking data from students all day, we’re losing teaching time, which is the most important part.

Teachers are pulled in multiple directions to do what their principals, schools, and district needs, but I want to be sure to care for the hearts of the students in my classroom.

Austin: What are the effects of all that pressure?

Lexie: It leads to so much burnout. It leads to teachers saying, I’m not equipped for this. My mantra has always been that every child deserves the very best education, which is a great concept but at the same time I’m putting a lot of pressure on myself to always give them my very best.

Being a parent has changed my mindset about children. I love my kids unconditionally. But my unconditional love is still not perfect. But God as our heavenly father loves us perfectly, and he loves every single kid in my classroom deeply and intentionally. I can release some control and let go of some of the pressure, knowing that God has them and is loving them where they are.

Austin: How does your faith inform your role as a teacher?

Lexie: Walking in prayer has been huge for me. I often pray, God, empty me of me and what I want and what I desire and fill me up with you. Fill me up with your words. Fill me up with whatever I’m supposed to say and do for these kids every day. And that’s been really, really special.

In Colossians 3:23 it says, “Work heartily for the Lord and not for man. And your reward is going to be in heaven.” There’s so many things that teachers have to do every single day. But those things are noticed by God and they will be rewarded. I know that God sees me and he sees my work and it will be rewarded eternally, even if I don’t see the seeds growing that I’m sowing right now.

Austin: What are some of the roles you have as a teacher?

Lexie: We have to be a kid watcher. We have to observe them and see what they know and don’t know so that we can go address the misconceptions they have about their curriculum or see what they’re struggling to understand and make sure to help them.

Teaching has changed a lot. Back in the day, the teacher sat at the front of the room at their desk and the kids did their workbooks but teaching is so active now. You have to be engaging. You are competing against screens constantly. You have to be theatrical in order to keep the engagement and the fun going. Kids are not going to learn if they don’t love what they’re learning or love the way that you’re presenting it.

Austin: What’s the best thing parents can do for teachers?

Lexie: Be supportive. Yes, of course, gift cards, coffee, things like that are wonderful. But being a supportive parent, having my back and appreciating that we are in your child’s life together is the best thing you can do.

Offer your kids support at home; make sure that you are talking through things that are happening at school, whether that be emotional struggles, friendships, peer pressure, all of the things. I would just ask for parents to be present and love their kids well and to be in prayer with their teacher as we’re trying to figure out what these kids need and how we can love them well.

Austin: Can you speak a little bit about the culture of a school?

Lexie: All schools are different. Some struggle just to have the supplies the teachers need to do their job. When you walk into the door of a school, you get a specific feeling. I don’t know if it’s instinct, but you can tell if it’s a school where you can relax and feel at home, or if the school is in survival mode and doing the best they can. If administration is nowhere to be found.

One thing that has helped me was to realize that most of the things that I was in control of were just the things that were in my classroom. I had to remind myself that I was here for the students and didn’t need to worry. It helps to have other teachers that you can collaborate with and have each other’s backs.

Austin: Are you ever able to share your faith in the classroom?

Lexie: A lot of ministering and showing Jesus isn’t through words, especially in school districts. But we have a great opportunity to show Jesus through our actions every single day. We can extend grace, we can show patience when we are frustrated.

I abide in God and stay in step with his spirit, listening to what he wants me to do. We know students are bringing their very best every single day to our classroom and I’m thankful for that. Jesus has transformed my words even if I’m not saying his name. People notice something different about me and often ask me about it.

Austin: That’s amazing, Lexie! Would you mind praying to close?

Lexie: I would love to. Heavenly Father, we thank you for today. Help us to not grow weary of doing good, but be reminded that the good we’re doing is going to be rewarded by you. I pray that our listeners, especially teachers, would look to you and release some of that pressure we feel into your hands, knowing that it’s all for your glory. Remind us that we’re not working to be noticed by others but we are working for your kingdom.

Give the people listening words of wisdom, that you would be pour out your goodness to them and they would be able to be able to see the goodness of you through their actions and words and want to follow you. God, we thank you for this time. We thank you for this podcast. I pray that you would use it for your glory. In all your beautiful and holy name, I pray. Amen.

Austin: Thank you so much for being here today.

We won’t have to sit across from a patient and tell them that we have exhausted even the most advanced treatments modern medicine can provide. But there are doctors who face the realities of life and death every day.

In this profound episode of our new series, Performing Under Pressure, Austin Conner, PLPC, sits down with his longtime friend, Dr. Brandon Huffman, a gastrointestinal oncologist and clinical researcher, to explore what it’s like to live at the intersection of extraordinary scientific progress and profound human suffering.

Together they look beyond the white coat and into the unseen pressures physicians carry: the expectations they place on themselves, the limits of medicine, and the emotional cost of walking with patients through the hardest moments of their lives. Throughout the conversation, Brandon shares how his Christian faith enables him to face suffering honestly without losing hope, even when healing doesn’t come in the way he or his patients desperately want.

Whether you work in medicine, care for people in another high-pressure profession, or simply wonder how to remain faithful when you’re confronted with problems you can’t fix, this conversation offers a thoughtful and deeply human perspective on calling, compassion, and the hope that endures even in the face of death.

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Highlights from this Interview

Austin: Today I have the privilege of interviewing my good friend, Dr. Brandon Huffman. We did our undergrad work at Mizzou way back in the day; he knew me when I was a baby Christian. Welcome! Tell our listeners a little bit about yourself.

Brandon: Thanks for having me. I grew up in a small town in northwest Missouri, went to Mizzou for undergrad and met my wife, Chelsey, while we were there. We’ve been married since 2009 and had a son, Oliver, in 2015.

Austin: How did your interest in medicine originate?

Brandon: Funny, I actually did not think I was going to become a doctor. I would have never told you 20 years ago that this is where I would be in this moment. I grew up on a farm and the only school I applied to was the University of Missouri. There wasn’t really anyone in my family who had gone to any school beyond high school. I didn’t really understand what the next steps might look like.

So I went to Mizzou studying agricultural education. I quickly realized that was not the content for me. I actually had a bit of a crisis moment. One winter break, I was like, Dad, I think I’m going to drop out. I don’t want to do this. He said, well, why don’t you stick with it? Then in the spring semester, I had this biology course that really changed the trajectory of where I was going. I realized that I love science. I changed my major to biochemistry.

After I got my bachelor’s in biochemistry I didn’t get into medical school right away; I took the medical entrance exam three times. I went to Mizzou School of Medicine and graduated in 2015. After residency at Mayo Clinic, I became a medical oncologist. I treat patients who have gastrointestinal cancers like pancreatic cancer, colorectal cancer, and liver cancer, among other GI cancers.

Once I finished my chief year, we moved to Boston where I was a medical oncology fellow at one of the Harvard Medical School programs and am now on faculty there as a GI oncologist. I’ve officially been a doctor since 2015, but I finished my training in 2023 and that’s when I began practicing independently. So it’s not a quick career path.

Austin: Were there maybe one or two moments that stand out in your training?

Brandon: Professionally, everything I’ve achieved has been because of the people around me. I couldn’t have done any of it on my own. My wife, Chelsey, has been my rock. She’s encouraged me, refined me, and shaped so much of who I am. I’m incredibly grateful we met in undergrad and have walked through this entire journey together.

Austin: Where did you feel the pressure to perform most throughout your training?

Brandon: Being a physician is really about stepping into someone else’s life. People tell you vulnerable things they’ve never told anyone else. That’s an incredible privilege because they’re inviting you in when something has gone wrong.

Medicine begins with the understanding that the human body was designed to function a certain way. Our job is to figure out what went wrong, why it happened, and what we can do to help restore it. That’s the art of healing.

During residency, the pressure came from wanting to do that well. I wanted to ask every important question the first time, but inevitably I’d have to return to a patient’s bedside and say, “We didn’t talk about this—can I ask you a few more questions?” Fortunately, most people were incredibly gracious. Those conversations helped us understand what was happening and develop the best plan we could.

Austin: So the greatest pressure comes in trying to bring healing. Is that right?

Brandon: When I walk with someone through a cancer diagnosis, I’m entering one of the hardest, most vulnerable seasons of their life. There’s an expectation that I’ll provide physical healing. From a scientific perspective, my job is to understand how cancer has disrupted God’s original design and determine how we can intervene.

What’s humbling is that I can’t heal most people. That’s probably the hardest part of my job and the greatest pressure I carry.

Austin: Say more about that. How have you learned to navigate that pressure?

Brandon: Patients entrust their lives to me. That’s a heavy responsibility. I go back to the science, the research, and the clinical trials that have shown what helps people live longer. My job is to slow the cancer’s growth and give people as much life as possible. But I only have so many tools in my toolbox.

Eventually, I reach the point where I have to tell someone, “I don’t have any other treatments.” That’s incredibly humbling because I know I can’t give them what they’re hoping for.

Austin: How have you learned to handle those moments?

Brandon: Honestly, I don’t handle that pressure very well. When someone comes to my clinic, they hope for a miracle. They hope for a cure. Sometimes I have to tell them we’re not even close to that. I want to do more, but I can’t.

At the same time, it reminds me that I’m not God. I have God-given abilities, and I’ll do everything I can. Some patients will live longer because of the treatments we offer. A few will even be cured. But many won’t. The only guarantee I can give is that, at some point, the cancer will end their life. That’s incredibly difficult.

One thing my training has taught me is the art of communication; that is, how to share hard news and understand what people value most. Patients tell me what they’re hoping for, what matters to them, and it’s my job to set aside my own emotions, enter into their world, and walk with them honestly.

Austin: You’re on the front lines of suffering and death. How has your faith in Jesus sustained you in that work?

Brandon: My faith is foundational to who I am. If I didn’t believe God had called me to this profession and these people, I wouldn’t be doing it. Honestly, I don’t know that I could witness this much pain and suffering without the greater hope of renewal.

Medicine teaches that there’s a normal way the body is designed to function and studies what happens when that design breaks down. Through the lens of Scripture, that makes perfect sense to me. I believe there is an intentional design—a world spoken into existence by God. Even at the cellular level, there’s an incredible order to how things are meant to work.

Cancer reminds me every day that we live in a fallen world. Something has gone wrong. Even scientists who don’t believe in God recognize that disease is the result of normal processes breaking down. As a Christian, the Fall provides the most coherent explanation for what I see.

Austin: Let me ask a more specific question. What has your work taught you about death and suffering? And on the other side of that, what has it taught you about life and hope?

Brandon: As an oncologist, I walk with people through death and dying. Our culture tends to avoid death. We don’t talk about it, and often we let someone else care for our dying loved ones. I’ve noticed that people tend to value the same things in the end. They want joy. They want relief from suffering. Also, everyone longs for connection, especially as life comes to a close.

I care for patients from every imaginable belief system. Some have a deep faith in God. Others find meaning only in family, and many fall somewhere in between. When I have the opportunity, I like to understand what they believe and what matters most to them.

Another important part of my job is helping people decide how much suffering they’re willing to endure. I often ask, “What are you willing to go through to live another day?” Everyone’s threshold is different. My role is to understand what matters most to each person and guide them through those decisions.

Austin: That brings me to another part of your work. You haven’t mentioned this yet, but you’re doing significant research. What’s it like balancing patient care with research?

Brandon: I spend a couple days each week seeing patients. The rest of my time is devoted to research, primarily designing and running clinical trials for pancreatic cancer and other GI cancers. The goal is to test therapies that will become the next standard of care. I never imagined getting to do this when I started my training.

Austin: I imagine it can be easy to tie your identity to your publications, promotions, or recognition. Have you seen that temptation?

Brandon: Absolutely. Our culture measures people by performance, and medicine is no different. Research productivity affects promotions, compensation, and opportunities. That can feed your pride. You start thinking, I did this. I’m changing medicine. But that’s simply not true.

When I was in medical school, I looked up to many of the people I now work alongside. I assumed they were brilliant people changing the world on their own. But every meaningful advance comes from teams of people working together. That’s humbling, but it’s also freeing. I get to rely on my colleagues, and they rely on me.

Austin: What advice would you give someone who’s in medical school, or just considering medicine?

Brandon: I’d encourage people to follow where they feel most called. Someone once told me to notice what I naturally spend my time reading because it often points toward what you’re called to do. During medical school, I was drawn to the journal articles describing practice-changing discoveries, and now I work in that area.

Austin: What do you want people to know about doctors?

Brandon: My answer is shaped by some of my own experiences as a patient and as a family member.

While I was in medical school, my mother-in-law developed cancer. I spent about a month helping care for her in the hospital, and ultimately she died from that cancer. That experience taught me what it’s like to be on the other side of medicine—to live with uncertainty and unanswered questions.

Later, Chelsey and I discovered we were unable to conceive naturally. We walked through infertility, a lot of prayer, and then IVF. We’re incredibly grateful for our son, Oliver. When Oliver was born, he had significant medical complications. He spent months in the hospital and underwent a life-changing surgery after we moved to Boston. Over the years, he’s had more than a dozen surgeries.

Those experiences changed me. Knowing medicine is one thing. Sitting beside the hospital bed as a husband and father is something entirely different. I experienced the medical jargon, the uncertainty, and the emotions from the patient’s side, and that profoundly shaped the kind of doctor I’ve become.

When people ask what I hope patients understand about doctors, I’d say this: every physician is human. Everyone appreciates the surgeon who comes in during the middle of the night to perform an emergency operation. But we don’t often think about what that person may have left behind—a spouse, children, or difficult circumstances at home—to care for someone else.

Austin: As we wrap up, is there one final thought you’d like to leave with our listeners?

Brandon: I think one of the greatest lessons has come from watching people live well—and even die well. There’s one patient I’ll never forget. This may be difficult for some people to hear, but conversations about the end of life are a regular part of my work.

I cared for a man in his fifties whose cancer had spread throughout his body. He’d been through multiple rounds of treatment, but eventually the cancer became resistant to everything we had. I asked him and his wife to come in. I told them, “We’ve run out of treatments. I think it’s time for hospice.”

Then I said the hardest words a doctor can say: “I wish I had more to offer you, but I don’t.” He didn’t respond with anger or even much emotion. His wife had the opposite reaction. She began sobbing, standing, and pacing the room. The husband pulled himself out of the wheelchair, walked a few feet toward his wife, wrapped his arms around her, and said, “It’s going to be okay. Remember, I have Jesus. This isn’t the end.”

I had to look away because I was choking up. To someone who doesn’t know Jesus, those words might not make much sense. But in that moment, they captured everything I believe. This man was dying, but his hope wasn’t. He knew that one day Christ would make him new. It was still a heartbreaking moment, but there was also a sense of hope. I’ll never forget it.

Austin: That’s such a powerful picture. As you were talking, I kept thinking of Jesus’ words: “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live.” I’m not sure we could end on a better note than that. Brandon, thank you so much for being with us. Would you close our time in prayer?

Brandon: I’d be honored.

Heavenly Father, thank you for your goodness and love. Thank you for the stories you’ve allowed me to be part of. I pray those stories would always point to you and bring you glory. Lord, I pray this conversation has encouraged those who are listening. Help us hold fast to the promises you’ve given us, faithfully serve the people you’ve placed in our lives, and live with the hope that only you provide.

We pray all of this in Jesus’ name. Amen.

Austin: Amen. Brandon, thanks so much for being with us.

Most of us will never command soldiers through a war zone or spend our days searching for hidden roadside bombs. But we all know what it feels like to carry responsibilities that seem heavier than we can bear. Whether you’re leading a family through a crisis, making difficult decisions at work, or simply trying to stay faithful in a stressful season, pressure has a way of revealing where you place your trust.

In this gripping episode of our new series, Performing Under Pressure, Shay Roush, M.Div., sits down with Vince Bentinganan, a retired Army lieutenant colonel and former Commander of Bravo Company, 110th Engineer Battalion, to hear about the realities of searching for improvised explosive devices (IEDs) during Operation Iraqi Freedom, in a hostile environment with brutal physical, mental, and spiritual conditions.

As they reflect on their 20-year friendship, Vince shares openly about the stress of combat, the weight of leadership, and the spiritual disciplines that kept him grounded during deployment. It turns out that things like prayer, godly friendships, connection, and encouragement are helpful even in one of the most dangerous environments imaginable.

Whether you’re navigating a season of overwhelming responsibility or simply wondering how to remain steady when life feels scary or uncertain, Vince’s story of faith under fire offers timeless wisdom and abundant hope.

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Highlights from this Interview

Shay: We’re interviewing people in high-stress professions to learn how they manage stress and what they discover about themselves in the process. Today I have the opportunity to interview a good friend of mine, Vince Bentinganan.

Vince: Thank you for having me. It’s an honor to be here. When you asked me six weeks ago while we were in Greece, I was both nervous and excited, and I still am! We’re recording this on the heels of celebrating America’s 250th birthday, and at the same time, I’m now 20 years removed from my deployment to Iraq in support of Operation Iraqi Freedom.

Shay: We’re so glad to have you. Today you work for the American Red Cross and travel around the country when disasters strike. But we first met in 2002, when The Crossing was still a church plant meeting at a local high school.

You introduced yourself and told me you were heading to Iraq. You asked if we could email each other while you were deployed. I wasn’t sure what I was getting myself into, but I wanted to support someone going off to war. That’s how our friendship began. Tell us what led you to join the National Guard and eventually serve in Iraq.

Vince: After my freshman year at the University of Missouri, I wasn’t doing well. I was hanging out with my buddies and making poor decisions. My best friend, John—who later retired as an Army helicopter pilot and lieutenant colonel—pulled me aside and said, “You need to get back on track. Join the Army National Guard and go to basic training.” I enlisted that same day, went to basic training that summer, and served for 29 years.

Shay: I’m thankful your friend stepped in and gave you that direction. How long had you been in the National Guard before deploying?

Vince: I enlisted in 1990 and deployed in 2005, so I’d already served 15 years. The first ten years were as an enlisted soldier, and the next nineteen were as an officer. I eventually retired as a lieutenant colonel, but during my deployment I was an Army captain.

When I asked you to pray for me, I was leaving my wife, Amy, and our two young boys back at home. Grant was almost five, and Evan was three and a half. We wanted Amy and the boys to find a church home and have a strong community around them while I was gone.

Shay: So Iraq was your first experience in a war zone. What was your role there?

Vince: I was an Army captain and combat engineer officer, commanding Bravo Company, 110th Engineer Battalion. I had 127 soldiers under my command, and they were the best group of soldiers I’ve ever served with. It was the pinnacle of my military career.

Our primary mission was route clearance—finding IEDs before U.S. and coalition forces or Iraqi civilians encountered them. We also provided convoy security across Iraq, from the south all the way north to Mosul, helping protect military supply runs and supporting Iraqi law enforcement. The conditions were brutal. Temperatures reached 110 to 120 degrees. We carried about 35 pounds of gear, ammunition, body armor, and water, riding in vehicles with no air conditioning.

Our route clearance missions were slow and deliberate. We’d move about five miles an hour, scanning for anything that looked out of place, like a patch of dirt that hadn’t been there before, or trash covering part of the road. If we found a suspected IED, we’d establish security and call in the Explosive Ordnance Disposal team to safely destroy it.

Shay: I remember reading your emails while sitting in my comfortable office in Columbia, Missouri, and thinking, Vince, we are living in two completely different worlds. You were leading the soldiers finding these roadside bombs. What did that responsibility look like?

Vince: I commanded four platoons, each led by a lieutenant and platoon sergeant. I truly believe I had the best group of leaders in Iraq. They led from the front, they were courageous, and they made my job much easier. Our missions ran around the clock. Whether it was two in the afternoon or two in the morning, we had three or four route clearance missions happening every day.

In addition, we had another mission called route sanitation. Iraq’s main supply routes were covered with trash and debris, creating places where roadside bombs could be hidden. One of my platoons operated up-armored bulldozers, graders, and scrapers to clear the shoulders and medians while the rest of us provided security. Those two missions worked hand in hand, and at the time we were one of the few companies in Iraq doing that type of work.

Shay: How often would you actually find IEDs? And were there times when your company came under direct fire?

Vince: During our 360 days on the ground, the three route clearance companies in our battalion cleared more than 950 roadside bombs. At the time, that was remarkable. Other battalions, brigades, and divisions relied heavily on the 110th Engineer Battalion because we provided safe passage for infantry units, logistics convoys, and so many other critical missions throughout Iraq.

Shay: Were there times when tragedy struck?

Vince: Several soldiers in my company suffered minor injuries, but God kept his hand on us. I can’t explain why other companies lost soldiers while Bravo Company did not.

Shay: That’s incredible. As we’ve been interviewing people for this series, everyone experiences stress in their profession. But I’m not sure I could interview someone who carried more pressure than you did. And as I look at you, I can see this still isn’t easy to talk about. Thank you for being willing to share. So let me ask you, how did you get through the stress?

Vince: There was a level of stress that I simply don’t experience today, even working for the American Red Cross. Over the course of that year, we experienced close to four dozen IED strikes on vehicles. I witnessed several of them firsthand. Sometimes my soldiers were in those vehicles. One time my own vehicle was hit.

The radio traffic would erupt into chaos. Insurgents often followed the explosion with small-arms fire, and our gunners would return fire from the turrets. It was incredibly chaotic. I think it all comes back to our training. We learned to remain calm, trust our training, and follow protocol.

Shay: How did you process all of this? Were there chaplains there with you? Were there people you could talk to when you came back to camp to help deal with the stress?

Vince: It’s incredibly important for men to have other men of faith to talk to. I had two men at the time. One was my boss, Colonel Mitch Passini. He was a man of faith, and we’d have daily conversations about our mission, how things were going, and the welfare of our soldiers. He loved and cared for soldiers, and he was a great example for the four company commanders he led, including me.

Then there was Chaplain Philip Pringle. I was 35 at the time, and he was in his mid-50s, so about my age now. He was like a father figure to me during my time in Iraq. He and I spent a lot of time talking through what was going on in my soldiers’ lives back home, because that affected their mental state. We wanted soldiers going on missions with clear minds.

Once we left the safety of the base, the younger soldiers were rocking out to AC/DC and Metallica, getting psyched up for the mission. But once we got onto the main supply route looking for IEDs, the music went off. In my mind, I prayed a lot during those missions, and that was one of the biggest things that relieved my stress. When we got back to base, it was about taking care of yourself. I was reading, praying, working out when I could, and trying to eat as healthy as I could.

And honestly, Shay, communicating with you was extremely helpful. Knowing that Amy and the boys were plugged into The Crossing brought comfort. You emailed me, sent care packages, and encouraged me. I still remember the email where you said, “We live in two different worlds.” I remember thinking, That’s exactly right. I saved all those emails. I haven’t looked at them in years, but they meant a great deal to me. They were really the beginning of the friendship we’ve had now for over 20 years.

Shay: It’s been a gift to watch our friendship grow. You’ve led a small group at our church, you’ve been in my men’s group for years, and you and Amy have been an encouragement to Lynn and me.

As I listen to you, I’m realizing there was another level of leadership you were carrying. Families were grieving, parents were dying, children were sick. You were helping your men navigate all of that while leading them through combat.

Vince: Looking back, I tried to stay within my role as the company commander. Spiritually, I wanted to encourage my soldiers, but I also wanted to let the chaplain fulfill his role. Late in the deployment, after I’d helped many soldiers through Red Cross notifications, I received one of my own. My father was dying. My commander, Colonel Passini, gave me ten days of leave so I could come home for my dad’s funeral. I was grateful I could be there with my family before returning to Iraq.

Shay: Just to summarize what got you through the stress. You mentioned prayer, talking to godly men, relationships in general, exercise, eating well, and your faith. My guess is, your view of God became incredibly important during that time.

Vince: It absolutely did. When you and I first met, Shay, and you prayed for me before I deployed, that’s exactly what you told me—that God was sovereign over my life. It was really the first time I’d heard that phrase. That truth has stayed with me. It’s shaped how I handle stress today. I’m certainly not perfect at it, but those lessons have carried into every season of life.

Shay: They really have. After you retired from the National Guard, you worked as a loan officer in a very demanding role. Today you’re with the American Red Cross, responding to disasters around the country. It seems like you’re still relying on many of those same lessons you learned in Iraq.

Let me ask you one final question. Someday, when you’re old and gray and you look back on your life, what do you hope your legacy will be?

Vince: That’s a great, thought-provoking question. I’m glad you sent it to me ahead of time because it gave me time to pray and reflect. The verse that comes to mind is 2 Timothy 4:7: “I have fought the good fight. I have finished the race. I have kept the faith.” That sums up the legacy I’d like to leave: having God-centered relationships, believing the truth of Christ, and helping others do the same.

Shay: Vince, thank you for your service to our country, but even more, thank you for your friendship over the last 20 years. And thank you for sharing your story with us.

Vince: Thank you, Shay, for giving me this opportunity. What means the most to me is that this isn’t just my story, it gives me the opportunity to tell the story of my soldiers. That’s really how I viewed this interview from the moment you asked me to do it. I appreciate your friendship. I love you, man.

Shay: I love you too. Guys don’t say that enough to each other!

Some job stress is obvious: a trauma surgeon racing against the clock; a firefighter responding to an emergency; a CEO making decisions that affect hundreds of employees. Other job stress is harder to see but just as real: a teacher trying to reach a struggling student; a parent caring for young children; an employee trying to do good work while navigating high expectations. That’s why we’re launching our brand-new series, Performing Under Pressure.

Over the next few weeks, we’ll sit down with people from a variety of professions to discuss the unique pressures they face, how they manage stress, and the ways their faith in Jesus shapes their work. If it’s a career that’s similar to yours, you’ll feel encouraged to keep going. If not, you’ll gain understanding and insight into the different pressures people face. As it says in Galatians 6:2, “Bear one another’s burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ.”

Our first guest is Caroline Vandervoort, an emergency room nurse at University Hospital in Columbia, Missouri. In this enlightening conversation with Austin Conner, PLPC, Caroline shares what it’s like to work in the trauma bay, care for patients on the hardest day of their lives, receive criticism without becoming cynical, and battle compassion fatigue by relying on God’s strength.

Whether you work in healthcare or not, we think you’ll see yourself in Caroline’s story. Because ultimately, this episode isn’t just about emergency medicine. It’s about remaining compassionate under pressure, pursuing excellence without losing your soul, and discovering that Jesus is present even in trauma and chaos.

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Highlights from this Interview

Austin: Today I have the privilege of interviewing Caroline Vandervoort. Caroline is an ER nurse at University Hospital in Columbia, MO.

I first met Caroline in my final year of directing The Crossing’s college ministry. She was a freshman who agreed to join a book study through an insanely long New Testament Commentary, and she held her own! I was immediately impressed by her desire to learn and grow. I moved on to grad school and began counseling, but I always saw her around—most recently at the DMV of all places!

When we met up to plan this episode, I was stunned speechless, not only at hearing about what she goes through in her job on a week-to-week basis, but how she handles it and the mature perspective she brings to her job.

Caroline, say hello to our audience and tell them a little bit about yourself. What is your current role and how did you end up there?

Caroline: I’m excited to be here. Thank you for inviting me! I am from St. Louis originally and attended Brentwood High School. It’s a small high school; there were only about 55 kids in my grade. After I graduated high school, I came to Mizzou and graduated December of 2021. I started my career as a nurse straight off in the ER, which I didn’t think I was going to do.

But the Lord directed me to that path. I thought I was going to do labor and delivery or pediatrics. That was kind of more my speed. It turns out that I have a heart for the variety and the chaos and the level of critical care you get with the ER.

Austin: Tell us more about how you ended up there.

Caroline: When I was in college, I was working as a tech on the family medicine floor, and then I went to the float pool for a few years after that. And then my last semester, we did a practicum where we spend 180 hours in one unit. I had put my preference for the ICU and then put ER second, but I was just praying through wherever the Lord had me. I ended up in the ER for that whole semester, and I loved it so much.

There are many challenges: starting IVs, intubating people, seeing seizure activity even if that’s not what the patient came in for—they suddenly start seizing and you’re thrust right into it and have to run and get the Ativan and all the things.

There are times when you have to wrangle really combative, violent patients that are brought in by law enforcement. You’re putting restraints on people and just trying to survive as a young nurse. It feels like major imposter syndrome, like all this weight and burden on me right away to be able to have all these skills and take care of these patients that I don’t really know how to.

Austin: What have been some of the upsides of being an ER nurse?

Caroline: One of the upsides has been all the interpersonal skills that I’ve learned in terms of interacting and meeting people where they are and with what they need. Being everything to all people. It can be hard, but I think that has blessed me in all areas of my life.

It’s amazing the diversity and different socioeconomic statuses and the kinds of people that you see. I felt like I lived in a bubble for so long with people my age and my socioeconomic status. In the ER, my eyes were opened to the wide array of people that live here and the various struggles they have. You’re meeting them at the most vulnerable place and one of the hardest days of their life sometimes.

Austin: Can you share some of the specific pressures of being an ER nurse?

Caroline: I think a lot of people probably don’t realize how many things can be on a nurse’s to-do list at any given moment. Especially when you’re caring for four or five patients at a time, people are constantly moving in and out. You’re discharging patients, getting new ones, sending off labs, starting IVs, giving medications, charting assessments, and handling all these other tasks.

And then you’re also the person everyone comes to. You’re the middleman for everything. The doctors are talking to you, the radiologists are talking to you, the charge nurse is asking questions, and family members need updates. You have to know the big picture of what’s going on with each patient, but also all the details. If someone needs a blood transfusion or another treatment, you need to know exactly how much, where it’s going, and why.

You might have three different doctors asking you questions, and then after all that, you have to make sure everything gets done correctly. And that’s just one patient. Then you have three or four more patients you’re responsible for...and suddenly five more come through the door.

Austin: What part of your job has the most pressure?

Caroline: The trauma bay, where there is the most stress and the details really matter. Trauma surgeons will yell at you if you do something one second too late. There’s a strict protocol: the head nurse delegates the care; the float nurse takes blood pressure and establishes IV access…there are so many bodies, so much happening at once.

Austin: That’s a lot! How have you learned to manage or handle that pressure?

Caroline: The more you do it, the easier it gets. You have to go through discomfort to gain your confidence. In the beginning I would be able to rally—I would meet a friend for drinks and spend time with the church community. But the chronic stress of work made me feel like I needed to collapse and not talk to anyone. Now, on my days off, I recharge with exercise, clean eating, good sleep, and spending time in the Word.

Austin: How do you handle all the hardships and trauma that you encounter?

Caroline: I don’t want to be flippant and hardened and cold to peoples’ pain and situations. Some patients belittle me and that hits me to the core. If they said I was incompetent, this would stay with me and affect the rest of my day. Instead, I remind myself: “I am secure in who I am. I know I’m a great nurse. I know that I do a great job.” I pray for people when I’m tempted to lash back out at them.

I was having such a bad morning, and when I went to a patient’s room, she belittled my ability and character. I left the room crying. But then went back in there and killed her with kindness. I stood up for myself but did it with a tone of kindness and it diffused the situation. She apologized and was repentant.

I had a patient a few months ago who left against medical advice. He had a look of disdain and disgust and spoke horribly to me. Then I had another patient who was difficult. I was pulled in many directions and started to have compassion fatigue. I went to a supply closet and started crying to God. “Why would you give me this today? I can’t deal with this.” I wasn’t feeling the presence of the Lord.

All of these feelings won’t kill me. But I had to process them. I reached out to small group leader. She reminded me it’s ok to sit with all of these feelings. That gave me a lot of hope and shifted my perspective. I shared this experience with my community group as well. Now when I’m in that closet crying, I picture Jesus saying, “That is my daughter fighting for me in the kingdom.” Anything that causes me to look more like Jesus I will gladly bear.

Austin: Where and how has your faith informed your role as a nurse?

Caroline: Sometimes it seems like the work we’re doing is pointless; it feels like a band-aid on a bullet wound; the problems are so complex and I’m working in a system where we slap on quick fixes on things sometimes.

I tell myself I’ll do my job with excellence and integrity even when it’s easy to cut corners. If no one else sees me cut corners, Jesus would. I’m working for the Lord, and that informs the integrity of my actions. I try to do things with excellence, but that’s easily overlooked. It would be nice to be recognized more, but mostly I want my patients to feel blessed that I’m their nurse. Even if my boss doesn’t get it, Jesus is pleased.

Austin: What have you learned about Jesus in your role? Where and how have you seen him ministering to you?

Caroline: If you have eyes to see and are aware of his presence, he’ll give you opportunities to be his hands and feet. Who he places before you is so intentional. There are no accidents. There is something to be learned from every situation and you can always bring glory to God. I frequently ask God, “What do you have for me today? Help me to see opportunities and open doors.”

Austin: That’s amazing. Caroline, thank you so much for being on today!

But sometimes real life follows you to the beach.

The struggles, disappointments, and anxieties of life don’t disappear just because you’re on vacation. And what you need most isn’t another escape—it’s wisdom, perspective, and hope for the life you’re actually living.

That’s the thought behind our summer series, Beach Reads for Real Life. Listen in as our hosts share a book that has shaped the way they think about faith, mental health, relationships, suffering, finances, and spiritual growth.

These aren’t just books to help you pass the time. They’re books that can help you navigate real life with greater wisdom, deeper faith, and renewed hope. What will you add to your summer reading list?

Beach Read: “When God Seems Distant”

What if the problem isn’t that God has left you, but that he’s leading you somewhere you never expected to go?

If you’ve ever had the unsettling feeling that God is far away, you’ll want to hear John Tinnin, MFT, share about the book When God Seems Distant: Surprising Ways God Deepens Our Faith and Draws Us Near by & John Coe. It turns out that God often does some of his deepest work in seasons of uncertainty, silence, and longing—times when we can’t rely on feelings and are invited to trust him in new ways.

For anyone who has ever wondered why God feels far away, this book offers both comfort and a different way of understanding the journey.

Listen: When God Seems Distant

Read: When God Seems Distant

Beach Read: “When the Body Says No”

Have you ever wondered if your body knows something that your mind hasn’t caught up to yet?

In this thoughtful episode, Lynn Roush, LPC, explores a fascinating and sometimes controversial question posed by the book When the Body Says No: The Cost of Hidden Stress by Gabor Maté. What happens when the need to be loved, accepted, or needed becomes so important that we lose touch with our own limits?

Listen in as Lynn examines where Maté’s insights are helpful, where they may fall short, and how the gospel speaks to our deepest need for love, connection, and healing. You’ll discover that when your life is in God’s hands, you are free to be honest about your wounds because your worth is already secure in Christ.

Listen: When the Body Says No

Read: When the Body Says No

Beach Read: “The Next Conversation”

Most of us don’t wake up intending to say the wrong thing, yet we’ve all replayed conversations in our heads, wishing we’d responded with more wisdom, more clarity, or fewer words. Healthy communication is a skill we all need to practice, because even one conversation can strengthen a relationship or start to unravel it.

That’s why Austin Conner, PLPC, chose The Next Conversation: Argue Less and Talk More by Jefferson Fisher. Rather than offering vague advice to “communicate better,” Fisher gives practical tools you can start using immediately. Drawing from his experience as a trial lawyer, he shows how communication skills can dramatically improve our communication and relationships.

Listen: The Next Conversation

Read: The Next Conversation

Beach Read: “The Psychology of Money”

Many of us spend our lives chasing “just a little more”, assuming that the next raise, investment, or financial milestone will finally bring contentment. Yet some people with modest incomes build lasting wealth, while others who earn millions end up anxious and always wanting more. What makes the difference?

In this stirring conclusion to our series, Shay Roush, M.Div., takes a look at The Psychology of Money by Morgan Housel. As Shay explains three principles from Housel’s book, you’ll discover that your relationship with money isn’t just about dollars and cents. It’s about contentment instead of comparison, freedom instead of appearance, and faithfulness instead of instant results.

Listen: The Psychology of Money

Read: The Psychology of Money

Many of us spend our lives chasing “just a little more”, assuming that the next raise, investment, or financial milestone will finally bring contentment. Yet some people with modest incomes build lasting wealth, while others who earn millions end up anxious and always wanting more. Maybe the problem isn’t our finances at all. Maybe it’s our hearts.

In this stirring conclusion to our Beach Reads for Real Life series, Shay Roush, M.Div., takes a look at The Psychology of Money by . Despite its title, it’s not really a book about budgeting, investing, or financial formulas. It’s about human behavior.

Housel explores why our emotions, habits, fears, and desires often matter more than financial knowledge itself. His observations are insightful on their own, but they become even more powerful when viewed through the lens of Scripture. Again and again, his money lessons reveal themselves to be discipleship lessons.

As Shay explains three principles from Housel’s book, you’ll discover that your relationship with money is rarely just about dollars and cents. It’s about contentment instead of comparison, freedom instead of appearance, and faithfulness instead of instant results. Ultimately, money is not only a reflection of what you believe about God, but an invitation to trust him to provide.

Listen Now

Highlights from this Episode

As we conclude our Beach Reads summer series, I want to share a book I read on vacation a couple of years ago that’s stayed with me ever since. It still shows up in airport bookstores because it’s been on the bestseller list for years. It’s called The Psychology of Money by Morgan Housel, and I highly recommend it.

Now, money might not be what you expect from WYITW. We usually talk about anxiety, grief, marriage, trauma, and emotions. But here’s the thing: Jesus talked about money constantly; more than heaven, more than hell, more than almost anything else. There are parables about talents, the rich fool and his barns, the widow giving her last two coins. If money mattered enough for Jesus to keep coming back to it, it’s worth spending a few minutes talking about too.

The book isn’t really about finance. There’s almost no math. It’s a book about behavior: why smart people do dumb things with money, why people who never made six figures become wealthy, and why people who make millions sometimes end up broke. Housel’s basic argument is that doing well with money has far less to do with what you know than with how you behave.

As I read it, I kept thinking, These aren’t just finance principles, they’re discipleship principles.

I want to walk you through three of the biggest ideas in the book, hold them up against Scripture, and see what they can teach us about our souls. Because our relationship with money is rarely just about money. It’s about fear, identity, power, control, and whether or not we trust God.

Why Enough Never Feels Like Enough

The first big idea is the principle of having enough.

Housel tells the story of hedge fund manager Rajat Gupta. Here’s a man who had already made millions. Yet because it still wasn’t enough, he illegally traded on insider information trying to make even more, and he went to prison. That’s because the hardest financial skill is to stop moving the goalposts.

Modern capitalism is built to make us feel like we never have enough. Advertising constantly tells us we need the next thing. Once we reach one financial goal, we immediately create another. We compare ourselves to someone with more, take unnecessary risks, and often end up worse off than when we started.

If you’re a Christian, none of this is new. Solomon, one of the wealthiest people who ever lived, wrote in Ecclesiastes, “Whoever loves money never has enough.” The problem isn’t having money; it’s loving money. Three thousand years before a hedge fund manager went to prison, Solomon had already diagnosed the disease.

Where I’d push a little further than Housel is in asking why we never have enough. He’s a finance writer, not a theologian, but Scripture answers that question. We were created for Eden, for a world without scarcity, fear, or comparison. Now we live east of Eden. The ache for ‘enough’ that never gets satisfied by our bank account is ultimately an ache for God. Augustine said, “Our hearts are restless until they find rest in him.” I think our wallets are restless for the same reason.

Paul gives us the antidote in 1 Timothy: “Godliness with contentment is great gain.” You brought nothing into the world, and you can take nothing out of it. True contentment isn’t a financial number; it’s a posture of the heart. It’s something you can learn whether you have much or little.

So here’s the question: What’s your number? What amount do you think would finally make you feel secure? And if you reached that number tomorrow, would you actually stop moving the goalposts? Or have you asked your bank account to make you feel safe and secure? Can you get to the place where you say, “I don’t have to keep running on the treadmill of comparison because my life is built on Christ”?

The Freedom Money Can’t Buy

The second big idea is the difference between being rich and being wealthy.

Being rich, Housel says, is visible. It’s income, spending, the nice car, the big house, the vacations you post online. Wealth is invisible. It’s the money you didn’t spend. It’s the gap between what you earn and what you spend. That gap gives you options, freedom, and margin.

Many people who look rich are simply good at spending. The people who are actually financially free often look completely ordinary. Housel tells the story of Ronald Read, a janitor who quietly accumulated about $8 million by living simply and investing patiently. Nobody knew until he died. Housel contrasts that with people making seven figures who still file for bankruptcy because their spending always rises to match their income.

I think this is one of the most spiritually insightful ideas in the book: There’s a difference between looking blessed and actually being free. You can have the house, the car, and the lifestyle and still be financially enslaved and terrified that one bad month will bring everything crashing down. Or you can live an ordinary-looking life with tremendous freedom because you’ve built margin instead of image.

It reminds me of Jesus’ parable of the rich fool in Luke 12. His crops produced so much that he built bigger barns to store everything. Then he said, “Soul, take your ease; eat, drink, and be merry.” And God said, “You fool. This very night your soul is required of you.” The fool was visibly rich, but he wasn’t wealthy in any way that mattered. Everything he valued was stored in barns that couldn’t follow him into eternity.

I think many of us are still building bigger barns. But the size of the barn was never the point. The question is who you’re becoming while you build it. Are you creating margin? Freedom? Generosity? Or are you simply building a bigger container for your fear because you’ve placed your hope in money instead of Christ?

How Lasting Change Really Happens

The third principle is compounding.

Housel spends a lot of time explaining that small, consistent actions repeated over a long period produce extraordinary results. Warren Buffett accumulated most of his wealth after age 65, not because he suddenly became smarter, but because he’d been compounding faithfully for decades.

I think this may be the most spiritually useful idea in the entire book. We all want breakthroughs. We want a miracle. We want instant transformation. But God usually works through compounding. Small, faithful, ordinary obedience repeated over years doesn’t look impressive in the moment. Then one day you look back and barely recognize the person you used to be.

Paul writes in Galatians, “Let us not grow weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.” That’s compounding. The maturity you’re praying for, the marriage you’re hoping for, the freedom from old patterns you keep confessing. It usually isn’t one lightning bolt. It’s a thousand faithful Tuesdays that don’t seem to be accomplishing much until suddenly they have.

The Heart Behind Your Money

So let me leave you with three simple takeaways.

1. Name your enough. Decide what ‘enough’ actually looks like so you recognize when the goalposts start moving again.

2. Ask whether you’re building wealth or just looking rich. Pay attention to the gap between what comes in and what goes out. That’s where freedom lives.

3. Trust the compounding. Whatever small, faithful thing you’re doing right now, don’t quit because it doesn’t look impressive yet. It’s doing more than you can see.

Underneath all three of these principles is the most important point: Your money is one of the most honest mirrors of what you actually believe about God. Not what you say you believe, but whether you really believe he’s trustworthy. Whether ‘enough’ is possible this side of heaven.

God often uses money to reveal where we still don’t trust him and to invite us into the contentment Paul describes. Not because we’ve finally reached our ‘number’, but because we’ve finally learned to rest in Jesus.

Recommended Resource

The Psychology of Money by Morgan Housel

Most of us don’t wake up intending to say the wrong thing, yet we’ve all replayed conversations in our heads, wishing we’d responded with more wisdom, more clarity, or fewer words. Healthy communication is a skill we all need to practice.

That’s why Austin Conner, PLPC, chose The Next Conversation: Argue Less and Talk More by Jefferson Fisher as his Beach Read for Real Life. Rather than offering vague advice to “communicate better,” Fisher gives practical tools you can start using immediately. Drawing from his experience as a trial lawyer, he shows how communication skills can dramatically change the outcome of our conversations and improve our relationships.

Listen in as Austin explores the timeless wisdom behind Fisher’s ideas through the lens of Scripture. You’ll discover that for Christians, communication isn’t just a personality trait or a professional skill; it’s part of being a disciple. Every conversation becomes an opportunity to pursue peace, practice ‘good works’, and reflect the character of Christ to the people around you.

Listen Now

Highlights from this Episode

For many of us, summer means taking some time to relax—maybe going to the mountains, maybe to the beach, or just sitting on the porch with a good book.

Today, the book I’m going to recommend for your summer downtime is a called The Next Conversation: Argue Less and Talk More by Jefferson Fisher. This book is worth reading because it clearly and practically connects the dots on how to communicate with others in many scenarios that we all experience, including conflict in the workplace and in relationships.

Jefferson Fisher is a lawyer who rose to prominence after he created a 47-second video on Facebook called “How to Argue like a Lawyer Part 1”. He posted the video and went to bed. He woke up, went to work, and then checked it that night. The views were in the millions.

He realized people were eager to communicate more clearly. But what was missing was the practicalities of how to actually do that. Perhaps you are in the same boat. You know the importance of engaging in healthy, adult conversation with your friends and family. If you’ve got kids, part of your role as a parent is to help them communicate appropriately, with kindness.

Where you might struggle is in the practical aspect of communicating with kindness and wisdom. But it’s worth putting some work into, because our words matter. They can take root in our hearts and minds and have a ripple effect on those around us.

Win Less, Connect More

Fisher has a lot of great, actionable advice in his book, including principles, skills, practices, and strategies. It might seem a bit overwhelming, but stick with me as we go through this together, because it will all come together in the end.

In order to communicate more effectively, Fisher has 3 principles to follow:

1: Never win an argument

This one might take you by surprise, because you’ve always assumed that winning an argument is a good thing. But Fisher says that when you win a point, you often lose the relationship, respect, or trust of the other person. Instead, he advocates for shifting the goal to understanding, by finding common ground, validating the other person, and de-escalating the conversation.

2: Start thinking about the next conversation

When you think about the next conversation, all sorts of pressures lift:

• You don’t HAVE to say everything

• You don’t HAVE to say everything perfectly

• You don’t HAVE to let your initial response be your final response

Instead, when you assume there will be a next conversation, you can be more present with the other person. You have a better ability to listen and summarize what the person is saying, rather than half-listening to them while you formulate your next response.

3: Connection over transmission

Transmission is simply saying something without regard for the other party. It’s a one-way street. But connection keeps the other person(s) in mind. Connection is a pretty broad term, but Fisher narrows it down and defines it as “a word for understanding and acknowledgement.” And you have to have both to have true connection.

If you understand but don’t acknowledge that to the other person, you’re not connecting with them. If you acknowledge what the other person is saying but don’t understand it, you’re not connecting with them. Instead, you should acknowledge and seek to understand; keep in mind, this doesn’t mean you have to agree.

Three Skills that Change Conversations

1. Learn to control yourself. People are going to say things that make you feel angry, frustrated, sad, anxious, annoyed, and hurt. When that happens, you go into fight or flight mode, and your thinking brain goes offline.

To mitigate this, Fisher explains the importance of making your first word your breath. Take a deep breath in and a deep breath out. He says, “When you’re triggered you’re either going to speed up or lock up. But those initial two seconds get your breathing back under control.”

2. Say things with confidence. There are 2 ways to do this: use your assertive voice and manage difficult people well.

How do you use your assertive voice? Fisher offers 3 simple practices that can make a surprisingly big difference.

• Remember that every word matters. Instead of saying, “I just wanted to touch base on the outline,” simply say, “I wanted to touch base on the outline.” Instead of, “I’m sort of wondering if I should ask the team,” say, “I’ll ask the team.” Extra qualifiers like just, sort of, and maybe weaken your message. Saying things directly doesn’t make you rude; it makes you clear.

• Prove your assertiveness to yourself. One of Fisher’s best suggestions is to state your next step out loud and then follow through. Say, “I’m moving forward from this conversation.” “I’m setting a reminder.” Every time you do what you said you were going to do, you strengthen your own sense of agency.

• Express your needs unapologetically. In counseling, I’ve found this to be one of the hardest skills for people to develop, but it’s also one of the most transformative. Practice beginning sentences with, “I need.” “I need a moment.” “I need to speak with you.” “I need your help.” Those words may feel uncomfortable at first, but they’re healthy.

You also need to know what to do when someone crosses the line by insulting you, belittling you, or behaving disrespectfully. These 4 strategies will help you handle it well:

• Deflect or ignore it. Don’t give the other person a dopamine hit by reacting.

• Give it a long pause. Allow their words to echo back to them.

• Slowly repeat their words. Make sure they hear what they just said.

• Ask a question of outcome. This type of question seeks to highlight and project the reaction that they tried to elicit. For example, “Did you want that to hurt?” or “Did you want that to embarrass me?” These questions will help the difficult person see the foolishness of their statements so they can make changes and even apologize.

3. Say it to connect. Throughout the book, Fisher reminds us that great conversations begin with great listening. Most of us listen to respond. Instead, he encourages us to listen to learn by reflecting back what we heard: “So you felt overlooked when that decision was made. Did I get that right?”

Another recurring theme is the importance of validating emotions without immediately judging or correcting them. A phrase like, “I can see why that would be frustrating,” communicates empathy and helps people feel heard. Fisher also recommends expressing your own perspective with statements like, “I felt... when... because...” so you can be honest without attacking the other person.

Finally, Fisher emphasizes that connection is shaped not only by what we say, but by how and where we say it. Because meaningful conversations depend on presence, he recommends having important discussions face-to-face whenever possible.

Communication as Discipleship

In Matthew 5:9, Jesus says, “Blessed are the peacemakers.” Practicing the strategies, habits, and principles in this book can be a tangible way you can “be a peacemaker.” Rather than stir up strife, or continue a conflict, make peace with those around you.

In Ephesians 2:10, Paul says, “We are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand for us to do.” Communicating with wisdom and intentionality can be a form of ‘good works’ that God wants you to do.

When you learn how to communicate calmly, clearly, and with kindness, you are being a peacemaker and practicing good works. You are cooperating with the ways God is at work in the world around you. So as you lay on a beach, a couch, or a porch this summer, consider picking up The Next Conversation: Argue Less and Talk More.

Recommended Resource

The Next Conversation: Argue Less and Talk More by Jefferson Fisher

Maybe you’ve always thought of stress as an emotional experience; something that affects your mood, your thoughts, or your relationships. But what if stress has a profound effect on your body? And what if that stress started when you felt like you couldn’t say no?

In this next episode of our summer series, Beach Reads for Real Life, Lynn explores a fascinating and sometimes controversial question posed by the book When the Body Says No: The Cost of Hidden Stress by Gabor Maté. What happens when the need to be loved, accepted, or needed becomes so important that we lose touch with our own limits?

You’ll be challenged to consider the ways your life experiences, coping strategies, and emotional patterns have shaped your physical health. At the same time, Christians need a framework that goes beyond psychology alone. Scripture reminds us that not all suffering is a problem to solve. Some suffering comes from faithfulness, sacrifice, and obedience to Christ.

Listen in as Lynn examines where Maté’s insights are helpful, where they may fall short, and how the gospel speaks to our deepest need for love, connection, and healing. You’ll discover that when your life is in God’s hands, you are free to be honest about your wounds because your worth is already secure in Christ.

Listen Now

Highlights from This Episode

I was drawn to this book because I am very interested in understanding the connection between stress and disease in our bodies. As a 51-year-old woman who went through menopause at the early age of 40, and as someone who has walked through cancer and autoimmune diagnoses with several friends, I want to become aware of how hidden stress may be impacting my health.

Maté spent decades in family medicine and palliative care and noticed a pattern he couldn’t ignore. Many patients facing devastating diagnoses were remarkably kind, self-sacrificing, and reluctant to complain. He became curious about the connection between emotional patterns and physical illness, and this book is the result of that exploration.

I’ll break this episode into two parts. First, we’ll look at four core principles from the book. Then we’ll evaluate those ideas through the lens of Scripture, because while I think Maté gets a lot right, I also think his framework has limits.

Trading Yourself for Connection

Let’s start at the beginning. Do you remember the first time your body said no? Probably not. But from the moment you were born, your body was communicating your needs. Before you had words, it signaled when you were hungry, tired, frightened, frustrated, or in distress. Eventually, many of us learned to say “no” with our words, not just our bodies.

But what happens when a child’s no is upsetting to their caregiver? Every child needs limits, but if your family environment was uncomfortable with your thoughts, feelings, needs, or individuality—and if you never felt permission to say no and still be loved—you may carry that pattern into adulthood. Maté argues that when we learn to suppress ourselves in order to maintain connection, our bodies may eventually begin saying no for us.

Maté postulates that when we subconsciously learn the protective mechanism of repressing our feelings in order to keep connection with our parents, and we forfeit our ability to say no when we can or should, our bodies may end up saying it for us. In his practice as a medical coordinator of the palliative care unit at Vancouver Hospital, he found that almost none of his patients with a serious disease had learned to say no as an adult.

He observed that when children learn to subjugate their own wants or needs for the sake of maintaining connection with a parent, that that is the precursor for many autoimmune diseases, including MS, chronic fatigue syndrome, autoimmune disorders, migraines, endometriosis, and other conditions.

The Hidden Cost of Being Nice

Here are 4 principles that will help you understand your mind/body connection:

Principle #1: Your body and your emotions are not separate systems. Maté argues that Western medicine often treats the body and mind as separate systems. But the field of psychoneuroimmunology suggests that distinction is artificial. Your nervous system, immune system, hormones, and emotional life function as an interconnected whole. Chronic stress can influence inflammation, immune function, and disease processes throughout the body.

Principle #2: Overriding your emotions teaches your nervous system that connection is more important than authenticity. Maté calls this emotional repression. It’s rarely a conscious choice. In childhood, we learn that certain emotions feel unsafe—that anger isn’t welcome, sadness is too much, or our needs make others uncomfortable. So we adapt. We become easygoing, compliant, and self-sufficient because maintaining connection feels essential for survival.

The problem is that difficult emotions don’t simply disappear. According to Maté, they often show up later through stress-related symptoms, fueled by an erroneous set of beliefs that run in the background and shape our feelings and decisions:

• Belief #1: “I have to be strong.” The only safe posture is being constantly capable.

• Belief #2: “It’s not right for me to be angry.” It turns inward and becomes self-criticism.

• Belief #3: “I’m responsible for the whole world.” You feel the need to fix things for everyone.

• Belief #4: “I should be able to handle anything.” Asking for help feels like weakness.

• Belief #5: “I must justify my existence.” Your worth has to be earned.

Principle #3: The nicest people get the diagnosis. Maté noticed a common profile among many patients with autoimmune disease, chronic fatigue, migraines, and certain cancers. They were often caretakers, people-pleasers, and highly responsible individuals who struggled to acknowledge their own needs.

While these patterns often show up in women, men are frequently taught that emotional stoicism is strength and vulnerability is weakness. Chronic stress affects both sexes, contributing to cardiovascular disease, digestive issues, sleep disruption, and other health problems over time.

Principle #4: Your symptoms are questions that your body is trying to ask. Most people seeking counseling are looking for symptom reduction. They want to feel less sad, less anxious, less depressed, less angry, less upset. But Maté reframes symptoms. They’re not malfunctions that need to be silenced, they’re communications that need to be heard. He encourages questions like: Where have I been overriding myself? What am I afraid would happen if I fully expressed my feelings? Why is my body saying no?

Looking at Maté Through a Biblical Lens

I recently returned from a trip retracing parts of Paul’s missionary journeys, including a visit to the Mamertine prison where he was likely held before his execution. Standing in that dark, cold, underground prison cell, history suddenly felt very real. And it highlighted where Maté’s framework and the biblical framework must be held in tension.

Paul did not end up in prison because he lacked boundaries, ignored unresolved emotions, or failed to listen to his body. He suffered because he was faithfully following Christ. If Paul only listened to his body, he could have abandoned his mission and preserved his life. Yet his priorities had changed completely after his encounter with Jesus. In the book of Philippians, a letter that he wrote from captivity, he says:

Now I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that what has happened to me has actually served to advance the gospel. As a result, it has become clear throughout the whole palace guard and to everyone else that I am in chains for Christ. And because of my chains, most of the brothers and sisters have become confident in the Lord and dare all the more to proclaim the gospel without fear.

For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.

Paul saying yes to God came at great sacrifice emotionally, mentally, and physically. Here’s where I hesitate to wholeheartedly embrace Maté’s message because there is an interpretation of it that implies that if you are sick or suffering, it’s because your parents didn’t let you express your emotions. Or if you have an autoimmune disease, it is because you said yes when you should have said no.

While I think there is real truth in some of the patterns that he describes, if we take that to its logical extreme, there’s no room for Paul to be in that Roman prison, let alone for Christ to empty himself out as an offering because of his great love for us. There’s no room for anyone who has ever suffered, not because they abandoned their emotions, but because they were faithful and obedient to Christ.

There is a difference between suffering that you endure because of faithfulness to Christ and suffering you endure because you were taught that you could never say no. The suffering that Paul describes is not a symptom. It is a calling. Paul doesn’t want the Philippian church to lose heart over his suffering, because it is meaningful.

God’s unconditional love received over and over, not just believed as a doctrine, but felt in our souls and in our bodies, speaks to the nervous system’s deepest desire to be known and to be loved. Maté can name the wound, but the gospel can heal it because being connected to Christ is your protection, not just in this life, but in the life to come.

Three Ways to Listen Well

These takeaways will help you move forward with more clarity:

Takeaway #1: Notice your body as a messenger, not as an inconvenience. When you notice recurring tension, headaches, fatigue, or other physical symptoms, get curious before immediately pushing through. Ask yourself what your body may be communicating. Caring for your body includes paying attention to what it may be trying to tell you.

Takeaway #2: Distinguish between spirit-led sacrifice and self-betrayal dressed up as sacrifice. This is a hard one because they can look almost identical from the outside. Paul’s suffering in chains is purposeful, spirit-led, and held inside a clear sense of his calling. But self-betrayal masquerading as sacrifice is driven by fear. Fear of conflict, fear of losing relationship, fear of rejection. One of them flows from a secure identity and the other one flows from insecurity. Ask yourself, Am I serving or giving from abundance or am I doing this because I just need to be needed?

Takeaway #3: Learn about emotional honesty from the Psalms. The Bible never encourages emotional denial. There are psalms of deep lament that invite you to bring your grief, anger, fear, and confusion directly to God rather than suppressing them.

I don’t want this episode to leave you anxiously auditing every yes you’ve ever given. Ecclesiastes reminds us that our lives are ultimately in God’s hands. Pay attention to the patterns you’ve inherited. Learn to honor your limits. Say no when necessary. But don’t turn that into another attempt to control your future. You can acknowledge your emotions, accept your limitations, and still remain completely dependent on God’s providence. He is the author of your story, and his purposes are being accomplished through both your yeses and your nos.

Recommended Resource

When the Body Says No: The Hidden Cost of Stress by Gabor Maté

Few experiences are more unsettling for a Christian than the feeling that God has become distant. You pray, read Scripture, attend church, and try to stay faithful, yet the warmth and certainty you once felt seem to disappear. When that happens, many of us assume we’ve done something wrong. We begin searching for the mistake, wondering why God feels absent and how we can get back to where we used to be.

In the first episode of our short summer series, Beach Reads for Real Life, listen in as John talks about the book When God Seems Distant: Surprising Ways God Deepens Our Faith and Draws Us Near by & John Coe. The authors challenge the assumption that the Christian life should be a steady climb from one spiritual high to the next. Instead, they show how God often does some of his deepest work in seasons of uncertainty, silence, and longing.

What makes this book so refreshing is its honesty. Rather than offering quick fixes or formulas for getting God back, the authors identify feelings that many believers experience but rarely discuss. They invite you to stop treating your spiritual life like a self-improvement project and begin seeing it as a relationship that grows through vulnerability, dependence, and surrender. If you’ve had times in your life when God feels far away, this book offers both comfort and a different way of understanding the journey.

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Highlights from this Episode

Have you ever felt spiritually dry—and wondered if you were the problem?

Mother Teresa went for some 38 years without feeling the presence of Jesus. She talked with her spiritual advisors and wrote very often about this in her personal journal entries. Here is one journal entry from 1959:

That darkness that surrounds me on all sides — I can’t lift my soul to God — no light or inspiration enters my soul.

She wrote of feeling like a hypocrite and the Roman Catholic church hesitated to publish her personal journals because her expressions of the pain from not feeling Jesus’ love for her were very clear…but she persevered in her faith without feeling close to God.

Among Christians, this kind of painful honesty is rare. We may be afraid to share that we are going through a season of spiritual dryness because we fear what others may think. But this sense of “dryness, wilderness, or spiritual darkness” is something I’ve heard from many of my clients over the years. It’s more common that we realize—and it can be confusing for a Christian.

Perhaps you’ve struggled with this in some form. For example, it’s common to start out as a Christian with excitement and new energy, only to have the experience of it fade. Reading the Bible becomes boring, prayers become empty rehearsals, and so many things are more exciting than spending time with God. You may end up feeling like a spiritual weakling or failure.

The book When God Seems Distant addresses this issue by revealing how spiritual dryness deepens intimacy with God and renews your soul. This book doesn’t offer escapism like a traditional “beach read” does, but presents a very thoughtful map through times when God does not seem or feel present.

If you go to the beach and feel like your Christian faith is lacking, then this book is definitely a “beach read”. I would heartily recommend it as a resource to turn to again and again when spiritual things are flat or God seems nowhere to be found in your life. The authors’ recommendation for dealing with spiritual emptiness may surprise you.

Understanding the Spiritual Desert

What’s the first thing you instinctively think when you feel spiritually dry? You may assume that your spiritual dryness is because of your own personal failure or God withdrawing from you as punishment. In response, you may double down on studying spiritual disciplines and serve more in order to muscle your way back…or engage in self-rejection and get lost in shame.

The book’s core correction to this response is to understand that dry seasons are not evidence of failure—they are part of God’s plan to draw us into a deeper walk with him. Willpower and habit modification cannot fix the spiritual life, because that entirely misses the point of the wilderness.

The authors suggest that God’s movement in our lives takes us into hard places where we learn to rely upon a faith that is sometimes unseen. This gives a nod to the Apostle Paul’s teaching to “walk by faith, not by sight”.

Seasons of the Soul

Have you ever thought of the Christian life as seasons? We repeat these three seasons, in various intensities, throughout our lives:

• Consolation: Feeling God’s nearness and warmth; the spiritual “honeymoon.”

• Desert: Dryness and distance; God feels absent but there is no particular spiritual darkness.

• Desolation: Deeper darkness, disorientation, even the feeling of abandonment.

As Moses cautions the Israelites in Deuteronomy 8:2, “Remember how the Lord your God led you all the way in the wilderness these forty years, to humble and test you in order to know what was in your heart, whether or not you would keep his commands.”

God uses these seasons to reveal what’s in our hearts and wean us off needing the feeling of his presence as the basis of faith. When God seems distant, you are not behind. You are not failing. You may be in exactly the right place.

The Sneaky Way We Try to Control God

Can you relate to trying to “fix” your spiritual life the way you’d fix a productivity problem? Self-willed spirituality makes us think we’re drawing near to God when we are actually managing and manipulating him. We may use spiritual formation, disciplines, ministry, or moral behavior to relieve the burden of failure—trying to do in the flesh what only Christ can do.

The authors discuss two ways we try to come back to God after sin:

• When convicted of sin, the first response is “I’ll do better” using your own efforts rather than seeking Christ.

• Instead of bringing failure to God, you cover it through self-rejection rather than uncovering it to the Lord.

The church’s emphasis on spiritual disciplines, while good, has drifted toward an “input/output spirituality”: if you do the right things, you will get the right results. Conflating the Spirit’s work with our own spiritual practices is one of the main mistakes of the Christian journey.

Purpose in the Wilderness

Here’s what God is actually doing during dry spiritual seasons. He is testing your faith and giving you a chance to choose to rely on him even when the “feelings” aren’t there. Picture the Israelites wandering in the wilderness or Jesus fasting in the desert. Scripture shows that God’s people are consistently baffled by how he chooses to lead them through hard times rather than around them—and that’s by design.

God leads us into the wilderness to humble, test, and reveal what is truly in our hearts. God is not absent in the desert. He is working. The question is whether you’ll trust God when you cannot feel him. It’s important to remember: The desert is not a detour. It is the path.

Practical Wisdom for Seasons of Absence

• Stop trying to engineer consolation. Don’t manufacture a spiritual experience to escape the discomfort. Sit with the season.

• Be honest and practice lament. Honesty and lament are not signs of weak belief—they are the very path into deeper encounter with God. Bring what’s real, not what you think you’re supposed to feel.

• Don’t go it alone. The book emphasizes the necessity of guidance and community in difficult seasons: join a small group, find a mentor, or talk with a Christian therapist or trusted friend.

• Resist the moralistic reflex. When you feel the pull to “just do better,” pause. Ask: Am I seeking God, or am I trying to fix myself?

• Inquire rather than escape. The call isn’t to get out of desolation, but to ask: Lord, what does it look like to be faithful and obedient right here, right now?

• Relearn being loved. The final call of the book is not to perform better but to receive—to relearn loving God and being loved by him. This requires the very vulnerability the desert creates.

The wilderness is not where most of us would choose to meet God, yet Scripture and Christian history repeatedly show that it is one of his favorite places to form his people. If you’re walking through a season where God seems distant, this book offers a hopeful reminder: your spiritual dryness does not have the final word.

Rather than seeing these seasons as proof that something is wrong, you may begin to recognize them as invitations into a deeper, more resilient faith. When God Seems Distant provides wisdom, perspective, and encouragement for learning how to trust God’s presence even when you cannot feel it—and that may be one of the most important lessons of the Christian life.

Recommended Resource

When God Seems Distant: Surprising Ways God Deepens Our Faith and Draws Us Near by and John Coe

But after 10 conversations, 10 commands, and 10 keys to the universe, we discovered something unexpected:

The commandments aren’t just rules to follow. They’re a mirror that reveals our hearts, exposes our need, and points us to Jesus.

The many benefits of the commandments include protection, freedom, the restraining of sin, a facilitator of honesty with God, and a clear outline of God’s desire to redeem and restore his creation. When you understand that, you’ll want to follow them!

What’s Your Compass in Life?

In this foundational episode, John and Austin take a fresh look at the Ten Commandments and how they function as a compass for navigating the unpredictable and painful wilderness of life. They’ll explain how the commandments actually protect you, bring real freedom, help move forward what God is doing in the world, and even expose what’s going on in your own heart in a way that leads you back to grace.

And then they’ll land on the most important piece: what Jesus has to do with all of this. Because once you understand how he fulfilled the law, it completely changes how you see the commandments: not as something you have to do, but something you get to do.

Listen: Compass in Life

Read: Compass in Life

Idols of the Heart

In this discerning episode, Lynn and Shay take a look at the first and second commandments and what it looks like to live them out in today’s world. It turns out that idolatry isn’t just an ancient problem. It shows up in the things we rely on for meaning, security, and identity. Whether it’s approval, control, or success, these “functional gods” promise a lot but leave us empty.

Together, the first and second commandments confront the question of who we worship and how—and ultimately point us back to a God who cannot be reduced, replaced, or replicated. Take some time to listen or read along and consider: who or what is at the center of your life?

Listen: Idols of the Heart

Read: Idols of the Heart

The Most Powerful Name in the World

Do you ever think about how you use God’s name? You’ll want to listen in as Shay examines the third commandment to see how it applies to our lives today. You won’t be surprised to find out that it’s still relevant, but you may not be aware of ways in which you break this commandment without realizing it.

When you misuse God’s name, you diminish his power, authority, and the very essence of his being. God’s name isn’t just a meaningless label, but a revelation of his character, faithfulness and covenant love. Speaking God’s name carelessly or flippantly is an offense to his identity: the great I AM.

Listen: Powerful Name

Read: Powerful Name

Are You Too Busy to Rest?

If you stopped working and striving for a full day this week, what do you honestly think would happen? For many of us, that question feels less peaceful than it should. Our schedules are packed, our minds are noisy, and even when we try to rest, we carry the weight of everything left undone.

In this convicting episode, Lynn and Austin take a closer look at the fourth commandment through the lens of the Old Testament and the light of the New Testament. They’ll explore why rest can be so difficult, the way God’s invitation is less about rest and more about trust, and practical ways you can incorporate a Sabbath mindset in your busy life.

Listen: Too Busy to Rest

Read: Too Busy to Rest

Honoring Imperfect Parents

Few commandments feel as personal as the fifth commandment: “Honor your father and your mother.” For some people, that command feels natural and healthy. For others, it raises difficult questions and painful memories.

In this perceptive episode, Lynn and Shay thoughtfully explore the real meaning of the word ‘honor’; what honoring your parents does and doesn’t mean; the importance of healthy boundaries; and practical ways to show honor to your parents in everyday life.

Listen: Honoring Imperfect Parents

Read: Honoring Imperfect Parents

Who Decides the Value of Life?

You’ll want to listen in as Austin and John explore why human life is so sacred and why this commandment matters far beyond physical violence. They explain why God gave this commandment, the obvious and non-obvious ways it can be broken, and what Jesus means when he links anger and contempt to murder itself.

They’ll also step into several difficult and emotionally charged topics, including military service, suicide, and abortion. They thoughtfully engage the real-life complexity, pain, and ethical questions surrounding each one.

Listen: Who Decides Value

Read: Who Decides Value

When Attraction Crosses the Line

In this honest episode, Ryan and Kelley Wampler join Austin to talk about the devastating effects of infidelity, sharing personal stories of how adultery shaped the way they view trust in marriage. Together, they unpack God’s original design for relationships and why intimacy was always meant to flourish within safety, commitment, and covenant love.

From emotional attachment and flirtation to pornography and secret online interactions, there are subtle ways our hearts can drift away from faithfulness. The hosts discuss the role of temptation, the danger of secrecy, and why honesty and accountability matter so much when attraction begins to grow in unhealthy directions.

Listen: Attraction Crosses the Line

Read: Attraction Crosses the Line

Why You Take What Isn’t Yours

In this layered episode, Austin and special guest Kaelyn Mislan unpack the complex meaning behind the eighth commandment: “You shall not steal.” They share the reasons why stealing is wrong: because God commands against it, because it violates personal ownership, and because it disrupts the well-being of others.

They also explore practical ways this command applies today, from honoring other people’s property to avoiding “time stealing,” providing fair compensation, and being generous with others as God has been generous with you. Believers are called not merely to avoid theft, but to become people marked by honesty and generosity.

Listen: Why You Take

Read: Why You Take

The Hidden Danger of Living by Lies

Listen in as Lynn and John explore the ninth commandment: “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.” Drawing from passages like James 3, Matthew 12, and Proverbs 18, they discuss how words can bring either life or destruction. They explain the connection between truth and God’s character, showing how honest speech reflects the God who cannot lie.

The conversation gets practical as they walk through specific ways falsehood damages relationships and communities. From slander and gossip to flattery, half-truths, broken promises, and false assurance, dishonesty can easily disguise itself in everyday life. Most importantly, Jesus perfectly fulfilled what we never could and invites us to live in the freedom of his truth.

Listen: Living by Lies

Read: Living by Lies

Searching for Contentment in a World of Want

In this introspective last episode of our 10 Keys series, John and Shay explore why coveting is more than simply wanting nice things. Coveting affects the way we see our homes, relationships, success, possessions, and our sense of worth. Along the way, they look at why this commandment leaves even the Apostle Paul feeling exposed, and why comparison never actually satisfies.

They also talk about the difference between healthy desire and destructive craving, and why contentment must be learned over time. Coveting is actually connected to this first commandment about idolatry: whatever we believe can make us happy will take God’s place in our hearts. But the good news of the gospel—that permeates this whole series—is that Jesus meets the ache underneath all our desires.

Listen: Searching for Contentment

Read: Searching for Contentment

But the last command, “You shall not covet,” reaches into the hidden places of the heart where comparison and dissatisfaction grow. Even when our lives look fine on the outside, our hearts can still be restless, angry, and convinced that everyone else has been given something better.

In this introspective last episode of our 10 Keys to the Universe series, John and Shay explore why coveting is more than simply wanting something nice. Envy has the power to shape our entire lives, turning good desires into controlling desires. Coveting affects the way we see our homes, relationships, success, possessions, and our sense of worth. They explain why this commandment leaves even the Apostle Paul feeling exposed, and why comparison never actually satisfies.

They also talk about the difference between healthy desire and destructive craving, and why contentment must be learned over time. Coveting is actually connected to this first commandment about idolatry: whatever we believe will finally make us happy can slowly take God’s place in our hearts. But the good news of the gospel is that Jesus meets the ache underneath all our desires.

If you’ve ever struggled with comparison, disappointment, envy, or the feeling that everyone else’s life is better than yours, this conversation is for you. Listen to the full episode or read the podcast summary as we wrap up our series on the Ten Commandments and discover how true contentment is found not in getting everything we want, but in belonging to the God who already loves us completely.

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Highlights from this Episode

As we’ve looked at each of the commandments, we’ve shown how they protect us, guide us, and bring us life. Most people think they’re killjoys. God just wants to take the fun out of life, right? But they’re meant for our joy and actually bring freedom if we follow them.

Today we arrive at the final commandment, “You shall not covet.” According to some very astute theological scholars, we break this commandment every time we break any of the other commands. Because this one’s taking place in the heart. It addresses our deep, deep core desires.

Another word for ‘covet’ is envy. When envy takes hold, we can’t just leave what others have alone. There’s an old fable about a man who is offered anything he desires. The genie says that he can have whatever he wishes, but his neighbor will get double of whatever he asks for. Rather than wishing for something good, the man asks to be blinded in one eye. Then his neighbor will be totally blind. That’s a good summary of what coveting or envy is.

The full commandment is in Exodus 20:17: “You must not covet your neighbor’s house. You must not covet your neighbor’s wife, male or female servant, ox or donkey, or anything else that belongs to your neighbor.” It’s a mirror that you can hold up to your heart and see who you really are.

Scrolling Into Discontentment

Let’s go through each part of the verse and make it personal:

• “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house.” Well...they sure have a lot of nice stuff. Why can’t I have an HGTV house?

• “You should not covet your neighbor’s wife.” I’d be so much happier if I married someone different. Why am I stuck with my spouse when there are so many other better partners out there?

• “You should not covet his ox or donkey”. My car sure is a piece of junk. And all of our friends take amazing vacations. They go to Hawaii, they go to Europe, and we’re lucky if we make it down to Branson.

• “…or anything else that belongs to your neighbor.” Why is everything in my life so hard when everyone else has it so easy?

There’s nothing wrong with noticing what other people have. But most of us don’t notice our neighbor’s new stuff and then drop to our knees to thank God for all of our blessings. We notice and then we stop being thankful for what God has given us. The Apostle Paul himself says, “When I looked at the commandments, I was doing okay. Don’t steal. Don’t lie. Don’t kill. And then I got to do not covet.” And he was like, “I am such a sinner!”

Part of the reason why coveting makes us miserable is because it’s one of the only sins that doesn’t bring any satisfaction at all. Ironically, those who get everything in life are often the ones that are actually the most miserable. They’ve lost hope that fulfilled desire can ever make them happy. In other words, they have it all, and yet they’re still somewhat not satisfied.

There is want, and then there is want. There is legitimate desire, and there is coveting. We’ve lost the vocabulary to tell them apart. There’s a simple way to understand the difference. In healthy wanting, you’re the dog, and your desire is the tail. The tail follows you. In coveting, the desire is the dog, and you’re the tail. It wags you.

Why You Keep Reaching for More

James 4:1-3 describes coveting this way. “You lust and you do not have, and so you commit murder. And you are envious and cannot obtain, so you fight and you quarrel. You do not have because you do not ask. You ask and do not receive because you ask with wrong motives.” James is saying that your motives are not something that you can trust. Coveting is small decisions made over time. Then you become captive to it. It starts to wrap itself around you and it feels normal.

Desire itself is not the enemy. God is pro-pleasure. Psalm 16 says, “In your presence is fullness of joy. In your right hand, there are pleasures forever.” The problem is not that we desire too much. C.S. Lewis put it perfectly. He said, “We are far too easily pleased, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at sea.”

We settle for fleeting, trivial things when God is saying, I can give you something far better and far more lasting. Lewis is pointing out that our desires aren’t too strong. They’re just twisted and aimed at the wrong things. Coveting begins in the heart. If you surrender to it or let it have its way with you, it will end up making you miserable. The answer lies in the 1^st commandment: “Have no other gods before me.”

Coveting essentially is idolatry; it’s putting something in God’s place. Every time our desires become the dog, and they end up wagging us, we’ve taken something: a person, a possession, a status, or our reputation and put it in the place of God as our source of happiness. It becomes your functional God. That’s what you look to for fulfillment.

Made for Another World

Breaking this command not only hurts God, and not only hurts other people, but it also hurts you. God giving you over to your desires leads to your own personal hell, because you were made for something else. The Apostle Paul says in Philippians 4:12-13, “I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well-fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want. I can do all this through him who gives me strength.”

Contentment, Paul is saying, is the secret to true happiness. Notice something. Paul says that he learned it. That’s what we skip over. I have learned the secret. Contentment is learned over time, and you may have your heart broken and many dreams shattered before you learn it. For Paul, it was imprisonment. He’s writing this from prison, where almost nothing is under his control, and yet he’s talking about contentment.

C.S. Lewis also astutely observed, “Most people, if they really learn to look into their own hearts, would know that they do want, and they want very acutely, something that cannot be had or found in this world. There are all sorts of things in this world that offer to give it to you, but they never keep their promise.”

He said that when you arrive at this painful realization, there are four possible responses:

• First, you blame the thing itself. You keep moving the finish line when the next thing doesn’t bring happiness.

• Second, you blame yourself. You feel defective. You assume that something is wrong with you that everyone else has figured out.

• Third, you blame life. You become cynical and assume that the universe is out to get you.

• Fourth, you understand that creatures are not born with desires unless a satisfaction for that desire actually exists. A baby feels hunger. Well, there’s food. A duckling wants to swim. Well, there’s such a thing as water.

If you find yourself with a desire that no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that you were made for another world.

The Law Leads to Jesus

Jesus said, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me shall not hunger. And whoever believes in me shall never thirst.” In Jesus, you have the friend who sticks closer than a brother. You have the high priest who loves to intercede for his people. God is with you. He hasn’t forgotten you. You are not alone. And so when you begin to envy, when you begin to covet, when you begin to think you’re missing out in life, and God has not been good, remember that.

We’re going to wrap up our discussion on the 10th commandment. But we’re also wrapping up the entire series. So let’s put the Ten Commandments in perspective. Think of them like a mirror when you’re shaving in the morning. The mirror is only showing you what needs to be addressed. So you can look at these commands, and you can wag your finger at yourself and say, now you’ve got to be better at this. That’s like asking the mirror to shave you, right? The mirror doesn’t shave you. You have to look for the thing that will address the needs that you have.

You want to love God. You want to love your neighbor as yourself because of this new heart that God’s given you. You know you’re forgiven. You know you’re loved. And that frees you up to love God and to love others. If you try and please God by living up to these commands, you’ll never be able to achieve that and it will result in frustration and legalism.

If you eat the icing off of cake all of your life, you will become extremely unhealthy. No protein, no complex carbs, no nutrients. If you approach the Ten Commandments that way, without Jesus being the bread of life, you’re going to destroy yourself. You’ve got to eat the bread too.

This is exactly how Paul understood the Ten Commandments. He said the law, the Ten Commandments, is like a tutor. It leads us to Christ so that by faith, by trusting in the one who kept all the commandments perfectly, we will be made right with God.

At times, lying might seem like a not-so-harmful sin (“little white lie”) but there’s a reason that truth matters so much to God—and why the Bible treats careless speech with such seriousness.

In this episode, Lynn and John continue our ongoing series, 10 Keys to the Universe, by exploring the ninth commandment: “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.” Drawing from passages like James 3, Matthew 12, and Proverbs 18, they discuss how words can bring either life or destruction. They explain the connection between truth and God’s character, showing how honest speech reflects the God who cannot lie.

The conversation gets practical as they walk through specific ways falsehood damages relationships and communities. From slander and gossip to flattery, half-truths, broken promises, and false assurances, Lynn and John examine how easily dishonesty can disguise itself in everyday life.

They also offer steps for slowing down before speaking, developing discernment in a culture full of deception, and recognizing the lasting impact that words have on others. Most importantly, they point listeners back to the hope of the gospel: Jesus perfectly fulfilled what we never could and invites us to live in the freedom of his truth.

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Highlights from this Episode

We’re going through the Ten Commandments and calling them 10 Keys to the Universe, because there’s a lot of life and goodness to be had from the commands. Going through these commands can feel daunting, overwhelming, even crushing. The deeper we get into them, the more we realize we don’t live up to them. But Jesus lived up to them perfectly, and the beauty of the gospel is that he says, “I’ll give you my resume as if you performed all of these things perfectly.”

Most people hear the word “command” and immediately think something negative. There is a negative side to them because we do things that hurt us, and God is saying, “No, stop hurting yourself.” But there’s also a positive side. Today we’re tackling the ninth commandment, which is about telling the truth and not lying. Tim Keller said, “God creates things with words.” So this command is all about words.

God says, “Let there be light,” and there’s light. “Let there be vegetation,” and there’s vegetation. But he couldn’t just snap his fingers and say, “Let there be forgiveness.” He worked through centuries of redemptive history to bring about forgiveness through Jesus because he wanted to be with us. God didn’t look at humanity and say, “You’ve dropped the ball. You’re not good enough for me.” He said, “I’m going to be good enough for you because I want to be with you.”

All of the other commandments can be broken with words. You can dishonor your parents with words. You can commit adultery with words. You can murder with words. You can steal with words. But when it comes to commandment number nine, it’s different because it’s entirely about words. It pushes us into the world of what the Bible calls ‘the tongue’.

The Power of the Tongue

Let’s start by looking at why our words matter. James 3 gives a detailed description of how destructive our words can be. James says, “The tongue is a fire, the very world of unrighteousness.” Fire burns and defiles the whole body. It “sets on fire the course of our life and is set on fire by hell.” Fire is a symbol of total destruction, and James is saying this is incredibly dangerous.

He continues, “No one among mankind can tame the tongue. It is a restless evil full of deadly poison.” Then he says, “With it, we bless our Lord and Father, and with it, we curse people who have been made in the likeness of God.” When we use our tongues in ways that hurt people, it’s wrong because of who they are. Human beings are made in the likeness of God. We are image-bearers.

We don’t tell the truth simply because it’s an assignment from God, like homework from an eighth-grade algebra teacher. We don’t tame our tongues merely because it’s good manners or because our parents said, “If you don’t have anything good to say, don’t say anything at all.” The command exists because people are eternally valuable to God. We are not rocks or turtles. If we hurt our neighbor with our words, God connects it to assaulting his own character.

Jesus reinforces this in Matthew 12. “The mouth speaks from that which fills the heart. The good person brings out of his good treasure good things, and the evil person brings out of his evil treasure evil things.” Then comes the sobering part: “I tell you that for every careless word that people speak, they will give an account of it on the day of judgment. For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

Speaking Life or Destruction

Proverbs 18 says, “Death and life are in the power of the tongue.” Those passages together show how much importance the Bible places on our words. One of the biggest lies we learned early in life was, “Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me.” The biblical version sounds more like this: “Sticks and stones may break my bones, but your words will ravage, disorient, and permanently scar my soul.”

The actual command says, “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.” When we bear false witness against someone, we take something away from them that is deeply valuable. At its heart, the ninth commandment is about protecting people: protecting their reputations, their safety, and their standing in the community. Our words are supposed to reflect truth because God’s nature is truth.

When we use our words truthfully, we mirror God’s light, life, and character. Truth is grounded outside of us in a real person: God himself. He loves people and does not want to destroy them with untruthful words. When someone asks, “Who told you that?” the Christian answer is ultimately, “God said so.” God cannot lie. He made the world and ordered it around truth.

Why Truth Matters to God

That raises the question: If God is truth, where did lying come from? The Bible says Satan is the father of lies. Lying is the exact opposite of God’s nature. Jesus’ claims about truth force a decision. You can’t simply say he was a good teacher. Either he was completely wrong, or he really was who he said he was.

With the trends of society and technology, we’re losing our ability to distinguish truth from lies. We’re exposed to misinformation, spin, and curated realities constantly. Sometimes we see a picture online and instantly assume it’s real because our instincts are being trained away from discernment.

Why do we lie in the first place? Often it’s because we fear punishment, shame, or embarrassment. Another reason is overpowering desires. We want to be popular, successful, and admired. In families and organizations, people spin narratives to protect their position and maintain the upper hand. Sometimes we lie simply to get our needs met because we don’t trust God to come through for us if we’re honest.

At some level, all these reasons for lying are about not believing God. We don’t trust that he can be with us, help us, and sustain us if we tell the truth.

With that in mind, we’d like to share different ways of lying that you may not have considered.

The Many Faces of Falsehood

1. Perjury

Perjury is the courtroom application of the ninth commandment. It’s testifying falsely under oath. This is especially serious because you are invoking God’s name as the guarantor of your truthfulness. So when you swear falsely by God, you’re also taking his name in vain, connecting the ninth commandment directly to the third.

When someone says, “So help me God,” and then lies, they are using God as a prop for deception. They are attaching God’s authority to falsehood. Truthfulness matters profoundly wherever justice and testimony are involved.

2. Slander

Leviticus 19:16 says, “You shall not go around as a slanderer among your people.” Slander means making false or misleading statements about someone that damage their reputation. God says this matters because it hurts people made in his image.

This isn’t just a social mistake or rude behavior. It’s a moral requirement rooted in loving your neighbor. If you make false statements that cause someone to lose their job, marriage, reputation, or standing in the community, you have committed a profound injustice.

3. Gossip

Gossip is different from legitimately sharing information. The issue is not merely talking about other people. Otherwise, no one could ever report a crime or warn someone about danger. Gossip is the careless, irresponsible circulation of damaging information without proper verification or legitimate purpose.

Gossip often masquerades as concern. “I’m only telling you so you can pray for Brother Jim.” But the real motivation is the social currency from being the insider with the information. Modern slang softens it. “I’ve got some tea” sounds lighter than “Let’s gossip.” But changing the wording doesn’t change the reality. God says gossip damages people.

4. Flattery

Flattery surprises people because it sounds positive. But flattery is insincere praise used to manipulate someone. It’s a form of false witness because you’re representing someone to themselves as better than they are, or pretending your relationship is warmer than it actually is in order to gain something.

This happens constantly in employer-employee relationships, social settings, and friendships. You exaggerate praise to motivate, influence, or gain favor: “You’re the best at this I’ve ever seen.” No, they’re not. The praise is functioning as manipulation rather than truth. The ninth commandment requires integrity rather than manipulation.

5. Exaggeration and Half-Truths

You can deceive someone while speaking technically true statements. You omit crucial information, emphasize selected facts, or frame things to create a misleading impression. It’s the lawyer’s trick of constructing a narrative from selected facts and the politician’s art of saying something technically accurate but functionally misleading.

The spirit of the ninth commandment demands more than technical accuracy. It demands the intent to produce true understanding in the listener. Half-truths distort reality even if individual pieces are factually correct.

6. False Assurance

Jeremiah condemns false prophets who say, “Peace, peace,” when there is no peace. False assurance happens when someone avoids difficult truth for the sake of comfort or convenience. It’s the doctor who says, “Everything’s going to be fine,” simply to avoid a hard conversation. It’s the friend who tells someone they’re doing spiritually great when they’re actually in danger.

The ninth commandment means we are obligated not only to avoid falsehood but also to speak necessary truth, even when it costs us. That does not mean dropping “truth bombs” on people carelessly. Truth without love becomes cruelty.

7. Broken Promises

The commandment also includes vows and commitments. Words about the future matter. Marriage vows are a powerful example. Saying “I do” shapes an entire life because promises create expectations about future faithfulness.

When you break promises carelessly or deceptively, you’ve lied about the future. Keeping your word, even when it costs you, is an expression of the integrity required by the ninth commandment. We all want to live in a world where people speak truthfully and can be trusted.

The Healing Power of Words

The positive side of this commandment is truthful testimony and sincere communication. We interpret people charitably and honestly. Ephesians 4 tells us to “speak the truth in love.” Truth and love belong together. It’s not permission to unload harsh criticism onto people.

People misuse “speak the truth in love” as an excuse to say harsh things however they want because they think, “I’m just telling the truth.” But biblical truth-telling is shaped by humility, love, timing, and care for the other person.

Sometimes you do need to say something hard. Other times, you need to notice the good in people and praise them sincerely. Proper praise builds people up instead of manipulating them, and reflects God’s character.

We have three practical takeaways to consider:

1. Audit your words before they leave your mouth.

Pausing is good. It’s okay to tell someone, “Let me think about that.” We often feel pressured to respond immediately, but wisdom slows down. Thoughtful pauses prevent tremendous damage.

2. Develop the ability to tell truth from lies.

We live in a culture working overtime to blur the lines between truth and falsehood. We need to stay anchored in God’s Word and rely on the Holy Spirit, who guides us into all truth. We need discernment to navigate a world full of deception.

3. Take seriously what you say about other people.

Your words have weight. “Death and life are in the power of the tongue.” Your words shape how you see the world, how you see yourself, and how others are treated. They affect opportunities, relationships, reputations, and even the condition of the soul.

Self-talk matters too. Speaking lies about ourselves can create incredible soul tears and damage. Dallas Willard famously began his mornings by saying, “There is no condemnation for me because I am in Christ Jesus. I am his beloved son.” Truthful words directed toward ourselves matter deeply.

If those kinds of truthful, grace-filled words are shaping your own soul, that’s what will eventually overflow onto other people. You’ll become someone who can speak life instead of death because your speech is being formed by the God who is truth.

Recommended Resource

The Doctrine of the Christian Life by John Frame

What if it starts with anxiety, dissatisfaction, and the belief that God won’t really provide what we need? To make it even more complicated, what if it’s about the ways that we aren’t always generous with our time and money?

In this layered episode of our ongoing series, 10 Keys to the Universe, Austin and special guest Kaelyn Mislan unpack the complex meaning behind the eighth commandment: “You shall not steal.” They share the reasons why stealing is wrong: because God commands against it, because it violates personal ownership, and because it disrupts the well-being of others. They also discuss how stealing reflects a failure to trust God’s generous character and reveals a mindset that places personal desires above the needs of others.

They explore practical ways this command applies today, from honoring other people’s property and work to avoiding “time stealing,” providing fair compensation, and being generous with others as God has been generous with you. At its core, the command calls believers not merely to avoid theft, but to become people marked by honesty and generosity.

If you’ve ever wrestled with comparison, entitlement, anxiety about provision, or the temptation to justify questionable choices, this episode offers both conviction and hope. Listen to this thoughtful conversation on the eighth commandment and discover how God’s design leads not to restriction, but to freedom, trust, and contentment.

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Highlights from this Episode

Austin: Welcome to WYITW. We are nearing the end of our 10 Keys to the Universe series, where we examine each of the Ten Commandments and learn how each one is a compass to help us navigate the wilderness of life when we’re stuck or confused or lost. Today we have arrived at the very short and sweet 8th commandment: “You shall not steal.”

Like many of these commandments, there is more than meets the eye to this one. And to help me unpack this I have brought someone I’ve known for over a decade, first as a college student and now as a co-worker at The Crossing, as Operations Director, and recent seminary graduate: Kaelyn Mislan!

Kaelyn: Thank you for having me!

Austin: I first knew you as a college student involved with The Crossing’s college ministry Veritas - you were the drummer! But what struck me is your love of people (especially people different from you) and your love of learning - you asked really good and thoughtful questions, which explains why you decided to pursue a seminary degree through Covenant. Our discussion today will be better for having you here.

Let’s define what stealing is so we can all be on the same page. I like how Old Testament scholar Douglas Stuart explains it in his Exodus commentary: “Stealing is taking something that does not belong to you without permission.” Short and sweet and clear—just like the commandment! But simple commandments are sneaky because we can be tricked into confidently thinking we keep them.

Kaelyn, let me put you on the spot for a second—have you ever stolen anything? Or if you can’t think of it, are you willing to throw someone else under the bus and talk about a time you saw someone else stealing?

Kaelyn: Part of my job is security stuff at the church, and we had a legit instance of thievery a few months ago. Also, when I started dating husband he was the type of guy that put soda in a water cup! What about you? Have you stolen anything?

Austin: I have two stealing stories: one where I’m the dummy and one where I’m the hero. When I was in 7th grade, I stole my best friend’s baseball card. And then I came to school THE NEXT DAY claiming that I found the exact same card in a pack. So dumb! But I was a hero when I caught a shoplifter at a clothing store where I worked. She was trying to make her way out of the store with about 80 items of clothing. I think all of us probably have each kind of story in our background.

To start, let’s take a look at 3 reasons why stealing is wrong.

First, stealing is wrong “because God says so” and that could actually be all the reason we need. He’s our Father who created all things, set up life in his way, and designed the rules. We need to be careful not to “put God in the dock” as C.S. Lewis says. In other words, be careful not to put God on trial as if he needs to justify himself. Nope. If he says it, it stands.

Second, stealing is wrong because it violates a person’s right to ownership. Douglas Stuart also pointed out how “legal possession and personal ownership of things are permitted implicitly by this commandment.” If Israel was a completely communal society with no rights to personal property or ownership, stealing wouldn’t be a command because no one person could claim “this is mine.” But the fact that God says “don’t steal” assumes that a person can claim a right to something.

Kaelyn: This command has no direct object, so we shouldn’t be stealing anything - which makes us think past the obvious forms of stealing and into more subtle, less obvious forms.

Austin: That’s a great point that we will explore in a bit.

Third, stealing is wrong because it threatens the social order and potentially causes others to be in pain, to be at risk, or to not have access to necessities. In the immediate context Israel is living an agrarian lifestyle. Not a lot of grocery stores around! So, if someone steals food, others will go hungry. If someone steals an animal, it compromises food and sacrifices. Stealing clothing means others will be cold or exposed.

Kaelyn, any other thoughts on this point, or other things come to mind as to why stealing is wrong?

Kaelyn: It violates God’s character. In fact, laws tell us something about the lawgiver and their values and character. God is the giver of life and all good things. He is generous and provides for even the birds and the flowers.

Austin: In the same way but reversed, when a person steals it reveals where their mind and heart are at, which is a problem. When someone steals, perhaps even for understandable and benevolent reasons, they are placing their personal needs over and above others’ needs.

Their personal rationale and logic is placed at the center of the universe; this justification of motives leads to a “It’ll be fine” mentality. If someone says, “I know stealing is wrong but…” That’s a big, problematic but!

Is It Stealing? – Lightning Round!

Now that we’ve covered some of the obvious points, let’s get to examples of stealing. Time for the lightning round! Let’s go one at a time. Hit me with the first one!

Q: The game has already started, and you move down to empty seats near the field. Is that stealing?
A: Probably not. The seats have already been purchased, enough time has passed to assume the ticket holders are not coming, and you already paid for admission. The important caveat is that if the original ticket holders arrive, you move immediately.

Q: You find a $20 bill on the ground outside a gas station and keep it. Is that stealing?
A: The wisest response is to turn it in to the employee working there in case someone comes back looking for it. Ethically, the money clearly belongs to someone, even if the owner is unknown.

Q: You take extra Chick-fil-A sauce packets beyond the limit listed in the app. Is that stealing?
A: It depends on the scale. Taking one or two extra packets probably falls into a gray area. Taking a large amount knowingly exceeds what the restaurant intended to provide and begins to look more like taking resources that were not offered to you.

Q: A struggling mother waits behind a restaurant dumpster for discarded leftovers to feed her family. Is that stealing?
A: Probably not. Once the restaurant throws the food away, they are relinquishing ownership of it. Even though the dumpster is still on their property, the food itself has been discarded.

Q: You order something online, it never arrives, so you get a refund. Then the item eventually shows up. Is keeping both the refund and the item stealing?
A: In most cases, yes. You now possess both the product and the refunded money, meaning the company absorbed the loss twice. Even if the mistake was theirs, knowingly keeping both crosses into dishonest territory.

Q: You work a salaried remote job and spend an hour talking to a friend during work hours. Is that stealing company time?
A: Not necessarily. Salaried work is often based more on completing responsibilities than tracking exact minutes. The key question is whether both employer and employee understand and agree to the expectations. The answer is clearer if you are being paid hourly.

Q: You don’t pay a parking meter because you think you can get away with it. Is that stealing?
A: Yes. Cities budget around expected meter revenue and intentionally avoiding payment takes resources away from services funded by those fees. The effect feels indirect, but if everyone adopted that mindset, the system would break down quickly.

Austin: We’ve talked about what not to do. Now let’s talk about what we should do. These are the things we should strive for, but there are also ways we can fertilize the soil and roots that will help contribute to healthier growth. We’re going to share 4 truths with you: 2 about God and 2 that provide guidance.

2 Truths About God

Truth #1: God is our Father who will provide for us. In Matthew 6:25, 30-32, Jesus tells his followers not to be anxious about what they will wear and what they will eat. This is important insight because anxiety precedes the act of stealing, and it shows that behind the mindset that says “I have to steal” is a lack of trust.

Jesus then gives the rationale as to why his followers don’t need to be anxious in verse 30, “Therefore do not be anxious, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ For the Gentiles seek after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all. But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.”

Truth #2: God himself is more satisfying than anything we could acquire for ourselves. In Deuteronomy 8:4, it says, “Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of the Lord.”

2 Truths that Give Guidance

Truth #1: Honoring Personal Ownership. We are stewards. We have been given so many things by God, and he calls us to take care of them. Don’t steal someone’s intellectual property and claim it as your own. Give credit where credit is due.

Truth #2: Honoring fair and just payment/reward for work and services offered. No demanding something that you haven’t earned or is unreasonable to ask for. No taking advantage of fair and just payments given to you without putting in the work (time stealing). 1 Timothy 5:18 says, “The laborer deserves his wages.”

This goes the opposite way too—don’t short-change your workers! You’re “stealing” from them in this sense. The full extent and spirit of the law is to be overly generous because God is generous with you.

Austin: There may be times when you need something that you don’t have, and you find yourself tempted to cut corners or to steal. Ask God to show you and convict you of these impulses. And ask, “Where and how can I rely on God?” Ask others for help, especially in the body of Christ. Galatians 6:1 says, “Bear one another’s burdens.”

Kaelyn: You can also ask yourself, where do I have abundance? Where am I overflowing with resources, whether that’s financially, relationally, with my time, effort, or skills? Where and how can I be generous and connect with people in need?

Austin: That’s so good. At the end of the day, the 8th commandment isn’t just about what you take or don’t take, it’s about who you trust. The good news of Scripture is that God is not stingy or forgetful. He is a good father who knows what you need, sees what you lack, and calls you into a full life through Jesus.

So as you step out of this conversation, maybe the question isn’t just, “Am I taking what isn’t mine?” but also, “Where am I failing to trust the one who has already given me everything I truly need?”

Thank you so much for joining us today, Kaelyn! We really appreciate it!

But you might not know that The Crossing has multiple podcasts that cover a wide range of topics:

Not Just Sunday - Pastors Patrick Miller and Keith Simon share practical steps for living a full-time Christian life

10 Minute Bible Talks - Learn how to apply a Bible verse in the time it takes to get to work or buy a cup of coffee

Going There - Vulnerable conversations for women about how to trade the messages of culture for truth

Christian Meditation for A Bigger Life - Experience God’s presence through biblically guided imagination

With new episodes dropping every week, it can be tough to know which ones are most worth your time. That’s where we want to help.

The Crossing Weekly Listen is a brand-new email you’ll receive every Monday featuring the week’s most meaningful episodes from across all of our podcasts. You’ll get quick summaries, episode links and recommended resources to encourage your faith throughout the week.

Sign up now!

Because in a world full of noise, finding thoughtful, faith-filled content shouldn’t feel overwhelming.

Even hearing the word can bring up grief, anger, shame, fear, and painful memories. For some, this commandment feels intensely personal because they’ve experienced betrayal firsthand. For others, it exposes struggles, temptations, or regrets they’ve hidden for years.

In this honest episode of our ongoing series, 10 Keys to the Universe, Ryan and Kelley Wampler join Austin to talk about the devastating effects of infidelity, sharing personal stories of how adultery impacted their own families and shaped the way they view trust, marriage, and faithfulness. Together, they unpack God’s original design for relationships and why intimacy was always meant to flourish within safety, commitment, and covenant love.

The conversation also moves beyond the narrow definition of adultery as only physical affairs. From emotional attachment and flirtation to pornography and secret online interactions, there are subtle ways our hearts can drift away from faithfulness. Along the way, the hosts discuss the role of temptation, the danger of secrecy, and why honesty and accountability matter so much when attraction begins to grow in unhealthy directions.

Most importantly, this episode offers hope. Whether you’ve been betrayed, made mistakes yourself, or fear repeating patterns you’ve seen in your family, failure is not the end of the story. Through confession, repentance, wisdom, and the grace of Jesus, healing and restoration are always possible, even in relationships marked by deep hurt and broken trust.

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Highlights from this Interview

Austin: Today my special guests are Ryan and Kelley Wampler. They co-lead the small groups ministry here at The Crossing, which is the church we’re based out of in Columbia, Missouri. Ryan and Kelley, hello and welcome.

Ryan: Thanks for having us, Austin. Both Kelley and I work with small groups here at The Crossing. It’s been a privilege to be a part of The Crossing for 24 years out of the 25 years it’s been in existence. There are so many people, so many stories, and so many changed lives that it’s been a blessing to be a part of over the years.

Austin: So glad to have you here. In our 10 Keys to the Universe series thus far, we’ve covered the first six commandments. Today we are at number seven: You shall not commit adultery. This can be a painful subject for many people. If you’ve been betrayed in marriage, then you know the damage it can inflict—not just on you, but on kids, extended family, friends, and more. Maybe you’re angry, hurt, and confused because this happened to you.

On the flip side, if you’ve committed adultery, you might feel guilty and ashamed for what you’ve done. If so, that’s godly shame as the result of your actions, but you might also feel frustrated that nobody’s going to let you forget about the harm that you caused, even if you have demonstrated genuine repentance.

You might come from a family where this happened. I haven’t shared much about my own story before, but my dad had an affair. He was repentant and we’ve been able to work through it as a family. But it had a devastating impact. Kelley and Ryan, what has your own experience been? When and how have you been affected by infidelity?

Kelley: It’s affected my family too. When I was in third grade, my parents got divorced because my dad had an affair. It was a really messy situation that was riddled with dysfunction. For many years, I wasn’t sure I wanted to get married because I didn’t want to possibly go through something so painful again. Since I didn’t see a model of faithfulness, it made me wonder if having a loving and committed marriage was even possible. The good news is that it is.

Ryan: When people have committed adultery, they are often branded and stigmatized. There’s a sense in which even discussing it is taboo. It keeps people from really being honest with it because it feels so dark and ugly and never something you want to be true of you, that you just have a tough time being honest and maybe getting help when you need it.

Austin: I love how you talked about being honest and getting help, and we’ll get to that a little bit later, but that’s really well said. We want to talk about it today because God gave this command for a reason. When we understand why and prioritize it, then our lives can flourish and bring goodness to those around us.

First, we’re going to talk about God’s original design for relationships, and then we’re going to see where and how things went wrong. Second, we’re going to discuss and define adultery. Next, we’ll talk about the specific ways that adultery or even attraction to someone else other than your spouse might happen to you.

If you’re single, this episode is still for you because one day you might be in a relationship or maybe you are single because you were cheated on in the past, and as you look for another relationship, you have real fears. So this isn’t just for people who are married.

Last, we’re going to end with some tangible ways that you can obey and live out this commandment with faithfulness and integrity. Kelley, tell us just a little bit about God’s design for relationships, and where and how things went wrong.

Kelley: When I think about a good theology of relationships and sex, where did it come from? Where did these ideas originate? When we look back at the very beginning of the Bible and the book of Genesis, we see God creating man and woman to be in this intimate and loving and committed and purposeful relationship.

God said, “It’s not good for man to be alone,” and he created them to have intimacy together in profound and satisfying ways. The other thing we see is Adam and Eve being naked and unashamed, meaning they knew the deepest parts of each other and felt accepted and valued and known. They were told to become one flesh and be fruitful and multiply.

Austin: I love how you said that. They long for intimacy, not just sexual, but emotional and relational intimacy as well. I’m really in awe because this good gift that God wants to give us of this deep and vibrant intimacy with our spouse, is one of life’s greatest joys. God knew that it takes safety and trust and faithfulness for that intimacy to be cultivated, which is why in his kindness, he gives us the commandment we’re talking about today.

Ryan: The serpent tells Eve that if she eats from the tree, that she will have the knowledge of good and evil and that she will see like God sees. Eve saw that the fruit was good. So for the first time in the story, we see discontentment. She’s no longer content with what she’s been given but takes something she wasn’t meant to take. She went outside of the relationship with God and the parameters he gave her.

Kelley: Sin is always seeking to distort the good things that God has given. You need to ask yourself, what’s the original good thing that God gave me, and what desire am I chasing after? Is it what God intends for me to have?

Austin: That brings us to the 7^th commandment, “You shall not commit adultery”. Adultery is a powerful, serious word. Maybe when you hear it, it feels irrelevant, because you haven’t had sex with anyone besides your spouse. But as you can tell from the title of the episode, we want to address the broader issue of attraction. What are some subtle forms of adultery or attraction that are unhealthy?

Kelley: As with most of the commandments, in the New Testament, Jesus ups the game. He doesn’t confine it to physical infidelity. He’s looking at your heart, not just your behavior. In Matthew 5, he says, if you lust after a woman in your heart, you’ve committed adultery. At its core, adultery isn’t just about behavior, but it’s about a misdirected desire or a broken trust.

The easy access to porn that is found in the digital space breaks my heart. It’s an epidemic that has literally shifted the landscape of sexuality in a way I’ve never seen in my time. It’s more than that: it’s sexting or exchanging explicit photos, fantasy relationships, Only Fans, even just flirting and exchanging DMs or using apps that you wouldn’t want your spouse to see.

Women have to watch out for emotional attraction, that feeling of excitement or longing or an emotional dependence on another person. For men and women, you can start to have a spark with somebody else. When you feel that way, the temptation can be to hide it. You start to tell feel like your spouse doesn’t “get you” and this other person does.

Austin: Adultery exists on a spectrum; the relational impact can look very different depending on the situation. For example, briefly developing emotional closeness with a coworker is not the same as carrying on a years-long affair, even though both cross boundaries. Also, cultural attitudes can change. Sometimes adultery has been seen as extremely shameful. Other times it’s considered to be not a big deal. This is even more reason why we need to turn to the Bible for our standards of marriage and faithfulness.

Kelley: I worked in a sales environment early in our marriage and was surprised by how married coworkers flirted openly, removed wedding rings at conferences, and made inappropriate plans together. During that season, what started as friendly conversation turned into attraction to a coworker. Right before going to dinner alone with him at a conference, I felt a powerful “Holy Spirit moment” warning me not to go through with it.

After that experience, I reached out to trusted friends for accountability and intentionally turned my attention back toward investing in her marriage. Later, Ryan and I were able to talk honestly about what had happened and process the hurt it created. I wouldn’t have thought I could ever be in that situation. It was a huge wake-up call, and a reminder that my heart is sick above all else and I need to tend to it.

Ryan: Over our 20 years of ministry, there are the people that I know that have allowed themselves to be attracted to people online, or developed porn addictions that led to hookups with random people in town and destroyed marriages. I’ve seen pastors and small group leaders at other churches who have succumbed. You can’t control when the spark happens, but you choose how you respond to it. You’re either going to keep it going, or put it out.

Austin: One of my seminary professors said, “Affairs are never about sex.” At first I didn’t even know what he meant. But his point was that attraction is usually a gradual process that happens in subtle ways. And it’s usually about being seen and feeling validated.

It’s important to understand how the ‘adultery train’ starts to pick up speed. It begins with whatever is happening or not happening in the marriage—criticism, resentment, disconnection, lack of effort put into the relationship. Then when the spark happens, if you’re not paying attention, you can start to think about the other person more than you think about your spouse, or compare your spouse to them unfavorably.

Ryan: Every marriage will experience discontentment in some degree or another. The honeymoon phase will end. You will be discontent. And that is not a sign that you need to leave.

Austin: Well said. And then the question is, “What do I do next?” Here are four practical ways to pump the brakes on the ‘adultery train’ once it’s left the station:

1. Be honest with yourself. Admit you’re attracted to someone else. Once you admit it, you realize it’s a big deal. You’re bringing it into the light. Admitting is always the first step to freedom.

2. Confess your sin. Psalm 51 is David’s lament and confession after he coerced Bathsheba into sleeping with him and had her husband killed. He says to God, “Against you and you alone have I sinned.” Yes, he had sinned against Bathsheba and her husband, but ultimately he sinned against God. So confess to God and then confess to your spouse.

3. Cut off communication with the other person. You have to break it off. It can be difficult to do this. Let your spouse take the lead and do what makes them comfortable. You may think you don’t need to do this, but unless you do, you’ll be re-ensnared.

4. Create new habits in your marriage. Maybe you’ll go on a walk every day. Or go for coffee once a week. Talk about emotional intimacy together. Ask your spouse, “How are you really doing? What’s really going on? How can I meet your needs? Can I share my needs?” Cultivating emotional intimacy can really be helpful in preventing affairs or repairing hurts. We list resources at the end that can help with this.

Ryan: The woman at the well in John 4 has had several husbands and she’s living with somebody who’s not her husband right now. Jesus knew what she had done, and yet he still treated her with respect and dignity and said that there’s hope for her to find living water. Whatever choices you’ve made, God knows, and he’s not shocked by it.

Austin: Getting off the adultery train might hurt. It might blow up the current living situation. It might make things more painful. You might have to confess things that are going to send a spouse spiraling. And those are painful. In the long run, you’ve come clean. You’ve got a freer conscience. When you trust in Jesus, he’s not going to let you go. He’s got you right now. And he offers forgiveness.

Ryan and Kelley, your perspective and wisdom is such a gift. Ryan, would you pray for us as we close?

Ryan: Heavenly Father, thank you for creating us as relational beings with the ability to connect with others. Thank you for your wonderful commands. We confess all the ways that we try to connect with people that are against your wisdom and guidelines. Thank you for being willing to forgive us. Wake us up in the early stages of temptation and help us to turn back to contentment, to faithfulness, and trust in you. We pray this in Jesus’ name. Amen.

Recommended Resources

The Trauma of Betrayal & Infidelity - WYITW podcast episode with the Raabsmiths

How Did I Get Addicted to Porn? - WYITW podcast episode

How We Love - Discover your love style & end your repetitive fight forever

Building True Intimacy - book by Dan Drake & the Raabsmiths

Making Marriage Work - WYITW podcast series

Making Marriage Work Small Group Study - a free download you can use to give your marriage a gentle tune-up